D&D (2024) Martial vs Caster: Removing the "Magical Dependencies" of high level.

[Clint_L]

How deeply did you look into critrole stats?
For example:

Did you know that 1100 points of Beau's damage came when Caleb did zero damage?

And that Beau has 13 more episodes where she did damage than when Caleb did?

In fact, when you take the average of the damage done per episode on episodes with more than zero damage, Caleb comes out ahead of everyone except Yasha (and who knows how the missing episodes would have impacted that average, it could go up or down)

As I mentioned earlier, campaign stats are tricky, but there is evidence here that wizards can be excellent damage dealers even compared to dedicated martial classes.

This seems like a claim that a fire specialist mage is very competitive with a monk and not too far behind a barbarian when we look deeper into the stats. Which to me is not consistent with Hussar's original claim that "I'll bet you dollars to donuts that your casters are number 1. Every time." Just trying to keep those goalposts aligned.

Casters (his claim, not wizards specifically but also warlocks, sorcerers, bards, druids and clerics, stopping at full casters) are seldom primary damage dealers. The obvious exception is when it comes to AoE, primarily due to fireball.

Also...how deeply did you look into those stats? Almost 600 of Caleb's damage came in episodes where Bea did a total of 3. And Caleb's damage is heavily supported by a few instances of AoE - on a fight per fight basis (i.e. when both are heavily involved in the action) Beau, who let me remind is a monk, consistently out-damages Caleb, who has a much higher damage range - a few AoE bursts are what keep him competitive. With a monk (also with a rogue, a warlock/paladin, and a barbarian). Not exactly "number 1. Every time." Which, again, was the claim.

This thread keeps devolving into fighter vs. wizard but the actual premise is martial vs. caster.

 

[Stalker0]

Seeing the D&D beyond data and how much more popular fighters are than every other type of caster made me remember funny point.

I think most people are pretty darn happy with fighters at the lower levels, certainly through like 6th level and I think up until 8th (I think once you hit 9th with 5th level spells is when the caster's real "plot" dominance starts to take over.

And those are the levels that the vast majority of players play at. So their popularity is not odd, or even anathema to this discussion.

I don't think most people are really worried about changing fighters at the lower levels (some are of course, but I don't think that the focus of the discussion). The argument is around that 10th+ level, which IS a minority of games. Effectively we are talking about major changes to a minority of the dnd experience.

 

[Gammadoodler]

This seems like a claim that a fire specialist mage is very competitive with a monk and not too far behind a barbarian when we look deeper into the stats. Which to me is not consistent with Hussar's original claim that "I'll bet you dollars to donuts that your casters are number 1. Every time." Just trying to keep those goalposts aligned.

Casters (his claim) are seldom primary damage dealers. The obvious exception is when it comes to AoE, primarily due to fireball.

I can't speak for Hussar to provide additional context on the specifics of their claim, but it seems to me that the substance of it is, "if a caster wants to win the damage race, they can"

I don't think this claim has been disproven and if I knew what to do with Yasha's stats, I'd even go so far as to say it's supported (especially considering that all damage numbers in critrole stats include the damage from all the cracked magical weapons the PCs got that amped up damage numbers).

Did Caleb get any items that amped his damage?

 

[Vaalingrade]

So am I the only one left advocating for low-level fighters to get things to do? Have we been pushed back and beaten down that far?

 

[Emberashh]

So am I the only one left advocating for low-level fighters to get things to do? Have we been pushed back and beaten down that far?

I think most everyone agrees they could use more to do. The issue is a question of severity and how far it actually has to go, which has to be weighed against the simple fact that even at low levels, Casters generally get too much to do. And that all has to also be weighed against the variety of intersecting issues that all exacerbate the problem between DM induced disparities and shoddy system and adventure design.

 

[OldSchoolGamerGirl]

So am I the only one left advocating for low-level fighters to get things to do? Have we been pushed back and beaten down that far?

i will stand with you... you can have may axe (but only if we refluff hexblade so I don't have to be a fighter)

 

[Minigiant]

Sure points at the monsters being the problem doesn't it?

Kinda funny how so many times this can come up where we get into the weeds of whats causing problems and so many times its something other than the Martials themselves.

That was always the problem.

D&D fans want to kill powerful demons devils fairies and undead who fly teleport and cast spell with the captain of the City Watch.

 

[OldSchoolGamerGirl]

That was always the problem.

D&D fans want to kill powerful demons devils fairies and undead who fly teleport and cast spell with the captain of the City Watch.

no I want to kill the demons devils and demigods and titans and great wyrm dragons with a legendary warrior that can do amazing things that no normal person ever could... that just means a hexblade, a sword bard ect ect not a fighter

 

[Vaalingrade]

That was always the problem.

D&D fans want to kill powerful demons devils fairies and undead who fly teleport and cast spell with the captain of the City Watch.

Only if the Watch Captain is Samurai Jack, or literally any Dutch from Predator, or just a general badass weapon master.

 

[Incenjucar]

So am I the only one left advocating for low-level fighters to get things to do? Have we been pushed back and beaten down that far?

I'm pretty much at "I was right to skip 5E" and "I should probably design a mythic fighter class and port it to the 5E-based systems that are not 5E"