D&D (2024) Martial vs Caster: Removing the "Magical Dependencies" of high level.

[Micah Sweet]

I get that. It isn't how D&D works.

Almost nothing in D&D cares about thw narrative of what you did to level up.

Everyone levels the same. But rewards are distributed unequally, particularly at high levels.

Casters haven't done more narratively to earn this. It's just unequal mechanics.

If we had a game that did care about the narrative to distribute powers. Or if Casters had to do more to "earn" their cool powers, the unequal distribution could make sense.

As is. It doesn't.

I agree. That's why in my game I generally make sure they do have to earn them.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Except those categories aren't listed anywhere in DnD in any capacity? So you are basically creating categories then filling those categories with the things you designed to fit them.

Again, you are stating "human means this" but I'm pointing out that either half-vampire minotaurs are human, or "human" in DnD doesn't look like a normal earthling.

And all I want is for them to say that human has a different definition in D&D than it does everywhere else if that's what they mean.

 

[Yaarel]

But it is superhuman. As in no other human can do this. It is literally superhuman.

Zero explanation. Not even handwavium.

Rogues get to be mythic. And serve as an excellent template for what a non-magical mythic character looks like.

That’s why nobody ever bitches about rogues in these conversations. For some bizarre reason it’s only fighters that must never gain any sort of mythic qualities as they level up.

Yes, "superhuman". Precisely.

It may or may not be natural and-or magical.

Also, the Barbarian too can evade damage similarly to how the Rogue does.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Why is being a 15th level fighter related to what a human can “naturally “ do? No one is claiming all humans need to fly. But is there a particular reason we’re insisting that a double digit level fighter (or any class really) is in any way a “natural” thing?

First of all, some people are saying that humans should just be able to do stuff earth humans can't.

If the 15th level fighter can fly, that's fine. I just want the class to explain why in-universe.

 

[Hussar]

Supernatural martial arts training. An explanation why they can do things others humans can't.

There's nothing supernatural about an Open Hand Monk. Yet, Open Hand Monks can do all sorts of things that are superhuman.

Rogues have zero supernatural training and yet are literally performing superhuman (as in more than any human can do) feats simply through training (ie leveling up). To the point I can automatically hit ANY target. No matter what. At 20th level, my rogue training makes me so good that no matter what, I hit. The target could have an AC of 100 and it doesn't matter. I hit.

Fighters don't even get that much.

 

[Yaarel]

And all I want is for them to say that human has a different definition in D&D than it does everywhere else if that's what they mean.

Especially at Master tier and higher, humans can be explicitly superhuman.

 

[Hussar]

First of all, some people are saying that humans should just be able to do stuff earth humans can't.

If the 15th level fighter can fly, that's fine. I just want the class to explain why in-universe.

No, no one is saying that. That was a sidebar that @Remathilis started. No one is claimign that all humans shoudl be able to do stuff earth humans can't. What is being said is that very high level fighters should be able to do things that humans can.

So, if you need an in-universe explanation for things, what is the in-universe explanation for high level rogue abilities, which are clearly superhuman and doing things no human can do. No human can dodge fireballs. It's flat out impossible for any human to dodge a fireball. Cannot be done. Yet, a rogue (and to be fair, a monk) can. What's the "in-universe" explanation that is explicitly stated in the Player's Handbook? Or any other book for that matter?

And if it's not explicitly stated, and you're okay with that, why the double standard for fighters?

 

[TaranTheWanderer]

First of all, some people are saying that humans should just be able to do stuff earth humans can't.

If the 15th level fighter can fly, that's fine. I just want the class to explain why in-universe.

Do you need the rules to dictate the fluff behind the powers listed in the book or are you happy to let the players and DM create the story that leads to those powers?

 

[Remathilis]

Well, how do we justify that a rogue can dodge fire. As in automatically reduces damage to the point of taking no damage.

Something no other being in the universe can do because no other being can do it to virtually any energy attack.

The rogue being able to dodge that giant’s club (but only once per six seconds ) doesn’t need a supernatural explanation. Why does the fighter?

So I'm not a gigantic fan of how Evasion is fluffed for that exact reason. You can create scenarios where the ability no longer makes sense narratively. A supernatural rogue could blink into the shadow-plane for one second (avoiding the blast) or make a shield of shadowstuff that absorbs attacks, but even with that, evasion and uncanny dodge are on the cusp of "I'm willing to accept" (see also, action surge and second wind). In fact, I kinda feel everything a fighter and rogue is doing currently fits the action-movie hero fine. I could even see some further movement towards more cinematic stunts.

HOWEVER

I keep drawing the line at "overtly supernatural". Flight. Mountain throwing. Killing an enemy through Intimidation. Running faster than a speeding bullet, being more powerful than a locomotive, and leaping tall buildings in a single bound. That stuff needs supernatural explanations. And I just need something. Heroic Bloodline. Specially brewed potions, unique magical training to mimic monster abilities. SOMETHING.

Don't keep leaving me with "I want to fly without using magic. No, I won't explain it."

 

[Yaarel]

Do you need the rules to dictate the fluff behind the powers listed in the book or are you happy to let the players and DM create the story that leads to those powers?

There needs to be an official default narrative that makes superhuman powers sound kinda sorta plausible.

At the same time, DMs − especially worldbuilders − need to easily change this flavor.

So the default flavor needs to be a light touch, such as a single sidebar mentioning the flavor once. The official default flavor must avoid baking into every mechanics everywhere. DMs need a freehand to edit flavor, and it is unfun to the DM to be forced to fight against the Players Handbook on almost every page.