D&D General Lethality, AD&D, and 5e: Looking Back at the Deadliest Edition

[Alzrius]

Rumor has it that some unnamed groups just let people set their charisma to 17 if you wanted to play a paladin. We ... umm ... I mean those unnamed groups ... thought it was a dumb rule.

I remember hearing a vlogger talk about how, in AD&D 1E, bards had a higher Strength prerequisite than paladins, but paladins had a higher Charisma prerequisite than bards. Or as they put it (paraphrasing): "Yeah, because when you think of the guy who's an absolute beast in combat, you absolutely think of bards, whereas paladins are the guys everyone expects to win friends and influence people."

 

[Micah Sweet]

fair enough but 1e had that PF2e expectation that the party would play like a well oiled team or die. If the party didnt' protect the wizard they died. If the rogue didn't do his job with traps etc he died. If the half elves and elves got too dependent on thier infravision they died. There were no extra rolls when went unconcious to prevent character death. You either got healed by someone else or you died. When you got hit by harsh enough fire, lightning or any other destructive force, magical or otherwise you rolled for every item you where wearing, and if they weren't metal or magical they probably got destroyed. Assasins got to roll percentile dice on even PC's if they got surprise. On the surprise round by straight rules you got one full round of attacks for every point of surprise you won by. If the orc raiding party got surprise by 2 points they got two full combat rounds on your party with no reaction at all allowed from your party. It was a very deadly game, especially at low levels unless the DM actively fudged the rules. For instance most DM's I knew after a few total party wipes with a bad surprise roll dumped the mechanic completely or simply allowed one combat round. There is nothing in 5e short of the DM that is anywhere near that deady if you stick to the rules and recommended encounter levels.

This is very true. Gary's comments above about letting the dice fall where they may if the player made mistakes means, to my mind, if the party didn't make strong use of teamwork and good tactics to survive fights. Which is all fine to me, and still typical of OSR play. The problem is that many people simply didn't and don't want to do that, so the game changed to accommodate players who just want to kick ass without worrying about teamwork or tactics for survival. What that means, of course, is if you do make use of those things, the party punches above its weight. And thus we have what we have now. And that's fine too, even if I don't personally like it.

 

[Krachek]

That depends on the rolling method used. Check out this excellent bit of analysis over on Delta's D&D Hotspot:

Compleat Character Creation Catalog: AD&D

Math, history, and design of old-school D&D.

deltasdnd.blogspot.com

There is also the method V in the unheated Arcana, which was very very strong.
In this book there is also a rule to allow minimum hit point at first level.
Officially it is Advanced DnD.


Method V
This method can only be used to create human player characters. It gives the player an opportunity to generate a character of a desired class (subject to the DM’s approval) and be assured that the ability scores for the character will meet the minimum requirements for the class in question.
After the player’s selection of a class is approved, he or she rolls a certain number of six-sided dice for each ability score to be gener- ated, as indicated on the following table. The best three die rolls for each ability are added together to produce the score. (For example, a fighter’s strength is determined by rolling 9d6 and keeping the three highest results.) If the total of the three highest die rolls is below the minimum requirement for an ability in a certain class, then the player takes the minimum number (e.g., 15 for a monk’s strength) as the character’s ability score. Similarly, if a rolled score is greater than the maximum allowable (such as for a barbarian’s wisdom), then the score is lowered to the maximum number

 

[Maxperson]

Nope. Reread the spell. Level draining undead flat out could not approach within 10 feet.

"Protection From Evil (Abiuration) Reversible
Level: 1
Range: Touch
Duration: 3 rounds/level
Area of Effect: Creature touched
Components: V, S, M
Casting Time: 4 segments
Saving Throw: None
Explanation/Description: When this spell is cast, it acts as if it were a magical armor upon the recipient. The protection encircles the recipient at a one foot distance, thus preventing bodily contact by creatures of an enchanted or conjured nature such as aerial servants, demons, devils, djinn efreet, elementals, imps, invisible stalkers, night hags, quasits, salamanders, water weirds, wind walkers, and xorn. Summoned animals or monsters are similarly hedged from the protected creature. Furthermore, any and all attacks launched by evil creatures incur a penalty of -2 from dice rolls ”to hit” the protected creature, and any saving throws caused by such attacks are made at +2 on the protected creature‘s dice. This spell can be reversed to become protection from good, although it still keeps out enchanted evil creatures as well. To complete this spell, the cleric must trace a 3’ diameter circle upon the floor (or ground) with holy water for protection from evil, with blood for protection from good - or in the air using burning incense or smoldering dung with respect to evil/good."

There's nothing there about level draining undead at all. Just summoned creatures.

The level 4 version 10' radius similarly lacks such language.

"Explanation/Description: The globe of protection of this spell is identical in all respects to a protection from evil (q.v.) spell, except that it encompasses a much larger area and the duration of the protection from evil, 10'radius spell is greater. To complete this spell, the cleric must trace a circle 20' in diameter using holy water or blood, incense or smouldering dung as according to the protection from evil spell."

Level draining undead only have a -2 to hit. Now maybe the 2e version is different and you are thinking of that. I didn't check.

 

[overgeeked]

The assumption of harsh and blind lethality of 1ed was not coming from Gygax.

Reading the rest of the DMG, MM, and PHB will be eye opening. They’re filled with ways to kill off PCs.

 

[Micah Sweet]

If AD&D is much more deadly then what people wanted, why was it written that way?

Isn't it a good thing the game reflects how people want to play it?

It was just as deadly as I wanted it. But character death doesn't bother me.

 

[overgeeked]

The bolded is key: it's far more pleasant to be the "good-guy" DM who makes things easier than the written rules suggest than to be the "bad-guy" DM who makes things tougher.

Exactly. Start with 5E and make it harder and you’re a killer GM. Start with AD&D and make it easier and you’re a hero GM.

 

[Clint_L]

There were approximately as many versions of AD&D as there were campaigns. 5e is far, far more homogenous.

 

[Maxperson]

Reading the rest of the DMG, MM, and PHB will be eye opening. They’re filled with ways to kill off PCs.

The problem is that Gygax wrote the DMG as if he had multiple personalities.

Gygax: "Don't kill the PCs unnecessarily and you can let them off if you want to."
Also Gygax: "Don't let the PCs get away with anything, kill, maim and/or punish them horribly if they even try to!!!!!!1111!!!"

 

[Parmandur]

There were approximately as many versions of AD&D as there were campaigns. 5e is far, far more homogenous.

I don't know that it is, necessarily. The rules are more clearly written and tuned for play, aure.