D&D General Lethality, AD&D, and 5e: Looking Back at the Deadliest Edition

[Willie the Duck]

of course in 1e if you have no ranger your going to run into warbands. 1e is the only version that roles actually mean serious consequences if you don't have one and no one else can fill in for you unless DM is allowing an npc.

I would disagree. 2e and 3e had serious consequences to tracking as a non-ranger, and both also limited finding magical traps to thieves/rogues. If you include access to specific spells like remove curse and cure disease, I'd say most versions up to 5e (where a lore bard at least can poach any spell-derived role) have had role-rigidity and consequences.

Different experiences. I rarely saw fighters with high dexterity and usually saw high strength/constitution. I did end up with some fantastic stats on the Sega Genesis Warriors of the Eternal Sun video game but that took rerolling probably over 100 times to finally get stats I liked.

FWIW if you ever re-play that game -- the only stats that have an in-game effect are Str, Dex, and Con, and the gauntlets of ogre power you find will change your Str score on your character screen, but not actually influence combat performance.

I will say I never saw people lose equipment to fireballs. For whatever it's worth, I went from Basic to 2e never playing 1e so there may have been an optional rule we never used. We did have some characters lose their heavy armor when the choice was remove it or drown. That's largely an edition neutral problem though.

Damage to items isn't optional in 2e, but it is buried in the DMG in an equipment section that (unlike the PHB) doesn't have specific equipment lists (just stuff like lock quality and horse traits and other stuff you might skip right over). Thus I bet a lot of people did miss it.

Nope. Weapon proficiencies were a 1e thing. And not listed as an optional rule. ANYONE could use any weapon they picked up as long as it wasn't prohibited, they just suffered the non-proficiency penalty, which for fighters was low (-2).

This is correct. Weapon proficiencies are covered in AD&D 1e Player's Handbook, p. 37. It is identical to the AD&D 2e rules, excepting that the 2e guidance that the non-proficiency penalty be halved if you are proficient in a similar weapon isn't included (although it might be somewhere else in the rules).

 

[Voadam]

How did you handle that sort of thing? I don't recall tables for it, but again I didn't play 1e and barely play Basic so maybe they had rules for it there.

1e DMG page 119

POTION MISCIBILITY
The magical mixtures and compounds which comprise potions are not always compatible. You must test the miscibility of potions whenever:
1) two potions are actually intermingled, or
2) a potion is consumed by a creature while another such liquid already consumed is still in effect
While it is possible to prepare a matrix which lists each potion type and cross references each to show a certain result when one is intermingled with the other, such a graph has two drawbacks. First, it does not allow for differences in formulae from alchemist and/or magic-user. Second, it will require continual addition as new potion types are added to the campaign. Therefore, it is suggested that the following table be used — with, perhaps, the decision that a delusion potion will mix with anything, that oil of slipperiness taken with oil of etherealness will always increase the chance for the imbiber to be lost in the Ethereal Plane for 5-30 days to 50%, and treasure finding mixed with any other type of potion will always yield a lethal poison. Whatever certain results you settle upon for your campaign, the random results from the table apply to all other cases.

POTION MISCIBILITY TABLE
Dice Score Result
01 EXPLOSION! Internal damage is 6-60 h.p., those within a 5” radius take 1-10 h.p. if mixed externally, all in a 10’ radius take 4-24 hit points, no save.
02-03 Lethal poison results, and imbiber is dead; if externally mixed, a poison gas cloud of 10’ diameter results, and all within it must save versus poison or die.
04-08 Mild poison which causes nausea and loss of 1 point each of strength and dexterity for 5-20 rounds, no saving throw possible; one potion is cancelled, the other is at half strength and duration. (Use random determination for which is cancelled and which is at half efficacy.)
09-15 Immiscible. Both potions totally destroyed, as one cancelled the other.
16-25 Immiscible. One potion cancelled, but the other remains normal (random selection).
26-35 Immiscible result which causes both potions to be at half normal efficacy when consumed.
36-90 Miscible. Potions work normally unless their effects are contradictory, e.g. diminution and growth, which will simply cancel each other.
91-99 Compatible result which causes one potion (randomly determined) to have 150% normal efficacy. (You must determine if both effect and duration are permissible, or if only the duration should be extended.)
00 DISCOVERY! The admixture of the two potions has caused a special formula which will cause one of the two potions only to function, but its effects will be permanent upon the imbiber. (Note that some harmful side effects could well result from this . . . )
Roll for miscibility secretly whenever it occurs. Give no uncalled-for clues until necessary.

 

[overgeeked]

How did you handle that sort of thing? I don't recall tables for it, but again I didn't play 1e and barely play Basic so maybe they had rules for it there.

There's a % chart in the AD&D DMG, p119. On a 01 the mixture explodes, seven mixed results in the middle, then on a 00 the mixture results in one of the potions being permanent. We fairly quickly made our own chart for that with a lot more interesting results. Something like a kiddie version of the Net Libram of Random Magical Effects that we added to over time.

 

[Velderan]

Damage to items isn't optional in 2e, but it is buried in the DMG in an equipment section that (unlike the PHB) doesn't have specific equipment lists (just stuff like lock quality and horse traits and other stuff you might skip right over). Thus I bet a lot of people did miss it.

Sorry I should have been clearer, I meant there may have been some optional rule that made it more likely. I was aware of the rule, we just never saw it happen. Well I guess we did have some caster's lose robes to fire, but that was more for comedy than anything. lol

A suit of magical armor made out of metal or leather had something like a 5 on it's saving throw vs. magical fire, with a +1 per bonus the armor had. It certainly was possible, we just never had it occur. We also didn't roll for everything in the interest of moving the game along, so off the top of my head we usually just rolled for armor worn, whatever weapon or shield held in hand, and that was about it.

This is correct. Weapon proficiencies are covered in AD&D 1e Player's Handbook, p. 37. It is identical to the AD&D 2e rules, excepting that the 2e guidance that the non-proficiency penalty be halved if you are proficient in a similar weapon isn't included (although it might be somewhere else in the rules).

2e actually made weapon proficiencies optional for regular play and required for tournament play. Non-weapon were always optional, I think.

 

[Mannahnin]

Other caster? What other caster?

I kid, but, not entirely. This is where playing modules makes such a HUGE difference. There are virtually no enemy casters in modules. ((Yeah, yeah, I know there are a few, sit down in the back)) It's why I always kinda laugh when people talk about losing equipment to fireballs. What fireballs? Monsters didn't have class levels. Most monsters had virtually no spell ability at all. And, again, ranged attacks from enemies? What ranged attacks? Wolves don't have ranged attacks. Most "monsters" don't have ranged attacks - manticores being something of an exception.

See, this is where I don't get it. That 7th level fighter has +1 Plate Mail, +2 shield and probably a 15 or 16 Dex. He's got a -2 or -3 AC. The monsters need 20's to hit him. Certainly any monster like an orc or a hobgoblin that was using a bow. That 7th level fighter could stand there and take literally a hundred attacks and not die. A hundred attacks might hit him 5 times for like 15 points of damage. Meanwhile, he's turned the enemies into a fine red mist.

It's all about different experiences. What you're describing, I never, ever saw in AD&D.

Yeah, your group definitely beefed up the PCs more than I'm used to (it sounds like you're saying the average Fighter you saw had 17-18 Strength, 16+ Con, and 15+ Dex?), and they apparently kept to relatively weak opponents for their level. Common fare on the 7th level encounter chart is stuff like Hill Giants, Chimera, Invisible Stalkers, and Barbed Devils. All of which hit AC 0 on a 12 or better. Or a 10-12 headed Hydra, which hits on a 9 or 10. An encounter with Ogres (who hit AC 0 on a 15) on the 7th level of a dungeon, assuming it was just with Ogres, would be assumed to be with 5-15 of them.

A horde of orcs definitely has a hard time killing a well-equipped 7th level Fighter (unless you use the grappling and overbearing rules), but on the other hand he's also very slowly grinding through them, with his 3 attacks every 2 rounds, or 2/1 if you're using weapon specialization. Meanwhile, if he's tied up with a dozen or so orcs, their Ogre or Hill Giant buddies and/or Evil High Priest boss can be putting the smack down on the softer party members.

 

[nevin]

Other caster? What other caster?

I kid, but, not entirely. This is where playing modules makes such a HUGE difference. There are virtually no enemy casters in modules. ((Yeah, yeah, I know there are a few, sit down in the back)) It's why I always kinda laugh when people talk about losing equipment to fireballs. What fireballs? Monsters didn't have class levels. Most monsters had virtually no spell ability at all. And, again, ranged attacks from enemies? What ranged attacks? Wolves don't have ranged attacks. Most "monsters" don't have ranged attacks - manticores being something of an exception.

See, this is where I don't get it. That 7th level fighter has +1 Plate Mail, +2 shield and probably a 15 or 16 Dex. He's got a -2 or -3 AC. The monsters need 20's to hit him. Certainly any monster like an orc or a hobgoblin that was using a bow. That 7th level fighter could stand there and take literally a hundred attacks and not die. A hundred attacks might hit him 5 times for like 15 points of damage. Meanwhile, he's turned the enemies into a fine red mist.

It's all about different experiences. What you're describing, I never, ever saw in AD&D.

we started with modules and then over time I just quit using them except for requests but most the modules i've red through have casters in them, and if your 7th level fighter was fighting orcs and hobgoblins of course it was a fine red spray. By that level we were fighting ogres lead by a half ogre classed fighter with his own magic armor , sword and bag of magic items and his buddy the 7th level rogue that we didn't know was there till first backstab and his 4 or 5 5th level shamens. Or the encounter where the party stopped to argue and the paladin said naughty word it and charged in (me btw) and then had to fight two white dragons cause the party died except for the cleric who had 5hpt s and could heal. orcs and hobgoblins should not be anything but minions for whoever you were really fighting at that level.

 

[nevin]

Sorry I should have been clearer, I meant there may have been some optional rule that made it more likely. I was aware of the rule, we just never saw it happen. Well I guess we did have some caster's lose robes to fire, but that was more for comedy than anything. lol

A suit of magical armor made out of metal or leather had something like a 5 on it's saving throw vs. magical fire, with a +1 per bonus the armor had. It certainly was possible, we just never had it occur. We also didn't roll for everything in the interest of moving the game along, so off the top of my head we usually just rolled for armor worn, whatever weapon or shield held in hand, and that was about it.


2e actually made weapon proficiencies optional for regular play and required for tournament play. Non-weapon were always optional, I think.

yeah fireball and lightingbolt were the DM's wipe out the party magic items go to at mid to high level's. Fireballs in 1e were more scary for what they could do to your items than to your character once you hit 6th level.

 

[overgeeked]

Yeah, your group definitely beefed up the PCs more than I'm used to (it sounds like you're saying the average Fighter you saw had 17-18 Strength, 16+ Con, and 15+ Dex?)…

Yeah. Someone sits down at the table with any character that has those kinds of stats we’d laugh and tell them to roll again at the table with everyone watching.

 

[nevin]

Or, you sold the Maul and kept your +3 Frostbrand because you didn't have weapon proficiency in warhammer and it was going to be three levels before you could even use it. Oh, and you didn't have a Girdle of Giant Strength, so, that Maul was just dead weight anyway because there was no guarantee that you could get that Girdle.

And the "sickness" is EXACTLY why these sorts of discussions just fly straight up people's left nostrils. Oh noes, people play differently than you do. What calamity.

What are proficiencies. In 1e a fighter could pick up any weapon and use it with full effect. You are confusing 2e with 1e sir. He could also wear any armor.


edit: and I think in 2e the only thing they needed a proficiency or skill for is exotic weapons but I could be wrong that may not have come till 3rd edition

 

[nevin]

Yeah. Someone sits down at the table with any character that has those kinds of stats we’d laugh and tell them to roll again at the table with everyone watching.

at that level it didn't matter if your stats were low you probably had girdle of giant st or gauntlets of ogre power and great armor.