D&D (2024) Does WotC view the Monk class as overtuned from their perspective?

[codo]

Its not so much that the designers think that Monks are overturned, as that the designers expect that players will have more encounters and take more short rest per day than many actually do. If a monk gets 3 short rests in a day they are actually pretty powerful.

Monks (and short rest Warlocks) very in power a lot depending on the number of short rests they get in a day. This is incredibly difficult to balance across different gaming tables, because the number of short rests can very widely between different games. I also get the feeling that a lot of groups end up having a similar number of rests most sessions. It seems like most groups tend to either have several short rests a day or none.

The only real solution to this is encourage changing the length of short rests based on your groups playstyle. This is why I have been saying that the rules for changing the length of shorts rests should be in the PHB. The rules should also explicitly explain and give examples on how different rest lengths can effect balance and change the playstyle. Basically the rules should encourage changing the length of short rests so that a party usually has 2 short rests ever long rest.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

The rules should also explicitly explain and give examples on how different rest lengths can effect balance and change the playstyle. Basically the rules should encourage changing the length of short rests so that a party usually has 2 short rests ever long rest.

I think that would be great. Changing the long rest duration is what made our games great and way more balanced.

 

[MostlyHarmless42]

Its not so much that the designers think that Monks are overturned, as that the designers expect that players will have more encounters and take more short rest per day than many actually do. If a monk gets 3 short rests in a day they are actually pretty powerful.

Monks (and short rest Warlocks) very in power a lot depending on the number of short rests they get in a day. This is incredibly difficult to balance across different gaming tables, because the number of short rests can very widely between different games. I also get the feeling that a lot of groups end up having a similar number of rests most sessions. It seems like most groups tend to either have several short rests a day or none.

The only real solution to this is encourage changing the length of short rests based on your groups playstyle. This is why I have been saying that the rules for changing the length of shorts rests should be in the PHB. The rules should also explicitly explain and give examples on how different rest lengths can effect balance and change the playstyle. Basically the rules should encourage changing the length of short rests so that a party usually has 2 short rests ever long rest.

And yet they did nothing in this playtest to reduce the monk's dependence on short rests, despite doing precisely that for the Warlock. If this playtest goes live monks will essentially be the only class that is significantly balanced around short rests and it is something that will be noticed in actual play by any group that has a monk.

you can’t possibly think that people here and who make YouTube CharOp videos represent any significant percentage of the player base.

You also misrepresent my statements when you restate them with key words missing. I said the monk is only significantly underpowered under certain circumstances and from certain very minority POVs. And I’m correct.

What the monk is, is frustrating to play for a lot of players, and not a great DPR-bot past low levels, which is unsatisfying for anyone who wants to be able to wreck face with their monk character without feats and MC. Feeling obligated to spend ki on stunning strike feels bad if that isn’t the type of monk you want to play. Going nova and then being behind everyone for the rest of the day because no one else needs a short rest sucks.

But unsatisfying and underpowered aren’t the same thing.

I cannot agree more with this line of thinking, other than perhaps to reiterate that Stunning strike is perhaps the most annoying part of the current monk. Not only is it absurdly better than every other monk class feature, it also outright incentivises monk players to just spam all their ki on stunning strike because the stun condition is effectively a fight ender the moment it lands. And that is before we even consider that Stunning strike being the almost universally best use of ki completely interferes with subclass abilities as well because they are competing for the same resource. It's bad game design, pure and simple.

What I want to see is to tweak the monk to be less reliant on stunning strike and redistribute some of that class balance elsewhere. Where we all might disagree would be where those changes needed be. Personally I'm of a mid that the monk needsa d10 hit die and the martial arts die should be starting at d6 and go up to d12. I also think the monk needs alternative strike options to stunning strike and that masteries represent a possibility of how to implement that sort of thing, but your milage may vary.

 

[Charlaquin]

And yet they did nothing in this playtest to reduce the monk's dependence on short rests, despite doing precisely that for the Warlock.

They literally got a feature that lets them get the benefits of a short rest by meditating for 10 minutes.

 

[Gorck]

What I want to see is to tweak the monk to be less reliant on stunning strike and redistribute some of that class balance elsewhere. Where we all might disagree would be where those changes needed be. Personally I'm of a mid that the monk needsa d10 hit die and the martial arts die should be starting at d6 and go up to d12. I also think the monk needs alternative strike options to stunning strike and that masteries represent a possibility of how to implement that sort of thing, but your milage may vary.

Just a completely off-the-cuff thought: take Stunning Strike away from the base Monk and give it to the Warrior of the Hand as one of its "Open Hand Technique" options.

 

[tetrasodium]

They literally got a feature that lets them get the benefits of a short rest by meditating for 10 minutes.

I'm not at my computer to check...

In tier3 of play was it? Do all of your games start that high? Most of your games? How about even a plurality of your games?It's a do nothing movement of deck chairs around a problem the gm is forced to enable. All that ability does is give the impression of doing something about short rest nova class design in order to reset critism without actually doing anything to address it.

 

[Charlaquin]

I'm not at my computer to check...

In tier3 of play was it? Do all of your games start that high? Most of your games? How about even a plurality of your games?It's a do nothing movement of deck chairs around a problem the gm is forced to enable. All that ability does is give the impression of doing something about short rest nova class design in order to reset critism without actually doing anything to address it.

7th level, so tier 2. I’ve never had any problem with short rest classes in general, so I don’t think my experience here is going to be helpful for what you’re looking for.

 

[MostlyHarmless42]

They literally got a feature that lets them get the benefits of a short rest by meditating for 10 minutes.

As noted. It's at 7th level, which is arguably at the point where ki for the Monk starts to become less of an issue. It's also about at a point where most campaigns are either 3/4 of the way through. If it were a lower level ability that the monk got around level three that would be better, but then we have to consider that basically none of the existing monk features can really afford to be pushed back and the "Is this balanced for Multiclassing?" hydra rears it's ugly heads and makes it far less likely WoTC will actually address do it for fear of making the class too appealing for dips.

Just a completely off-the-cuff thought: take Stunning Strike away from the base Monk and give it to the Warrior of the Hand as one of its "Open Hand Technique" options.

I'd be okay with this, but it then it poses the question of what should the base monk get in exchange? It'll need to be buffed to compensate, and that is before we start talking about Weapon Masteries and whether or not the new monk will have access to martial feats, fighting styles, or gods forbid an actual magic item or two.

 

[Gorck]

I'd be okay with this, but it then it poses the question of what should the base monk get in exchange? It'll need to be buffed to compensate, and that is before we start talking about Weapon Masteries and whether or not the new monk will have access to martial feats, fighting styles, or gods forbid an actual magic item or two.

Move Heightened Metabolism up to Level 5 It's not so much a replacement, as it is a power shift.

 

[tetrasodium]

As noted. It's at 7th level, which is arguably at the point where ki for the Monk starts to become less of an issue. It's also about at a point where most campaigns are either 3/4 of the way through. If it were a lower level ability that the monk got around level three that would be better, but then we have to consider that basically none of the existing monk features can really afford to be pushed back and the "Is this balanced for Multiclassing?" hydra rears it's ugly heads and makes it far less likely WoTC will actually address do it for fear of making the class too appealing for dips.


I'd be okay with this, but it then it poses the question of what should the base monk get in exchange? It'll need to be buffed to compensate, and that is before we start talking about Weapon Masteries and whether or not the new monk will have access to martial feats, fighting styles, or gods forbid an actual magic item or two.

I think that without stunning strike monk could (and probably should) probably get a little more ability to use weapons and armor rather than MA & UAD to start. After that change shifts them from trying to build a new combat engine separate from the one used by everything else in the game they could maybe get some kind of per initiative encounter powers/recovery to justify severing the short rest nova malignancy in its design.