D&D General What is player agency to you?

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
If someone wants to have the noble background in my campaign they have to explain why they have no more influence or wealth than other PCs in the group. Are they the 5th child with no chance of inheriting anything of significance? The black sheep of the family who's had their ties cut? The title they have once meant something but now it's just a title and coat of arms? Something.
That's not really the noble background, but more of an ex-nobility background. There's a reason 5th sons were shipped off to the monasteries. Lord Bonobo can expect to be met with and put up in the baron's castle. The 5th son of Lord Bonobo wouldn't have the pull to automatically get an audience with other lords.
I've been in games where a player really abused the noble background, it was annoying to say the least.
See, if they have the power it's not an abuse to use it. That's why I don't grant it unless I'm willing to see it used.
 

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SteveC

Doing the best imitation of myself
I've been in games where a player really abused the noble background, it was annoying to say the least.
If this is what troubles you, I'd suggest taking a little queue from Final Fantasy Tactics. That game has a lot to say about nobles, and none of it is good!

But seriously: being a noble is great up to the point where those above you are in control of what you do. I think just about every story I've ever read with noble characters having them bitterly lament their responsibilities at some point or other!
 

And? Taken together, they constitute the rules of the game.

The passage in the PHB that I quoted does not say that players can make suggestions. It says that players can establish quests, which are a technical concept within the game - story frameworks within which particular encounters are located. The DMG passage tells the GM to encourage their players to come up with these quests - that is, for players to establish the story frameworks for the play of the game.
Interesting take.

So are you saying it's ok for players to force a DM to run "their" quest then? It sure sounds that way?

And what would "making a Story Framework" look like? Do the players just get to say something at random and then the DM just "jumps" to make what they are told to make? Do the players have to submit a multi page Story Framework Outline?

And? All this tells us, which we already new, is that many RPG players do not want to exercise much agency in their play.
Very True

I think you're in the right on this one, even coming from a more narrativist direction; we might differ on some of the specific use cases, but I agree with you in principle.

Even using narrative techniques, a player declared move/action still has to pass a credibility test. Saying that finding a criminal contact or a noble when you're lost in the depths of the Astral Sea isn't a credible narration is entirely appropriate.
I'm not the biggest fan of the built in rule vague not really role playing bits. I guess a really clueless player can read such a feature and say "wow, nobles can talk to each other?" Other then that, they are just wasted space of half attempts. So...ok a noble "can" meet with another...ok, that does not say much.

I will require the player to put a lot of effort, time, work and investment in, if they want to see any positive results.
 

the feature already says that you work with the DM… and no, the feature maybe not working in a specific instance that was not even considered when the campaign started does not mean it now has to work or that the DM let the player down
This is inaccurate.

The background indicates that you work with the DM to determine the particulars of your noble house, etc. It doesn’t say anywhere that the feature only works in certain circumstances, or that the feature working is contingent on what you decided with DM.

Quoting the feature:

Feature: Position of Privilege
Thanks to your noble birth, people are inclined to think the best of you. You are welcome in high society, and people assume you have the right to be wherever you are. The common folk make every effort to accommodate you and avoid your displeasure, and other people of high birth treat you as a member of the same social sphere. You can secure an audience with a local noble if you need to.
 

Micah Sweet

Level Up & OSR Enthusiast
This is inaccurate.

The background indicates that you work with the DM to determine the particulars of your noble house, etc. It doesn’t say anywhere that the feature only works in certain circumstances, or that the feature working is contingent on what you decided with DM.

Quoting the feature:

Feature: Position of Privilege
Thanks to your noble birth, people are inclined to think the best of you. You are welcome in high society, and people assume you have the right to be wherever you are. The common folk make every effort to accommodate you and avoid your displeasure, and other people of high birth treat you as a member of the same social sphere. You can secure an audience with a local noble if you need to.
How about some people just don't like the idea of this ability working as advertised regardless of circumstance and want some latitude?
 

Oofta

Legend
Once again, in both of these instances, I need to ask myself "what am I doing here? What do I want this part of the game to be about?" And then I frame that in terms of the group. Outside of this group at this time, is anyone else ever going to interact with these locations?

So if I'm running a scenario on a remote island, and I have a criminal and a noble character (hey, one of them is a scoundrel, the other's a princess), I ask myself: what do I do with this remote island to make it interesting for my group? What is my group going to want to do here (beyond get off of it, of course).

So the criminal might say "hey, this is a place that's never heard of my syndicate. But there are people who are criminals here, so that's an opportunity to establish my group in this distant land." And that character might want to integrate with that part of the culture, do some work for them, buy and sell some things and so on, so that they can expand the reach of their syndicate in the future. Plenty of opportunities for quests there and built in plot hooks! And it again makes that choice matter.

The noble might want to get involved with whatever power structure exists on the island. Who runs things? Once again, they might use a very different approach to try and get involved with the powers that run the island. And again, that's the choices the player made for their character shaping what they want to do at the same time as it gives the GM options about what to do next.

And as far as the prison, I can't think of a better place to put members of the character's crime family than a prison. As you're designing the factions and power bases, you know what one of them is. For the noble, I'm sure there might also be some disgraced nobles in the prison that make up their own faction and the player might become a part of. Once again, the players have built in plot hooks that are going to get them moving without you doing a thing. Maybe there will even be tension between the two characters.

In both of those cases, you're making what the players did in choosing their backgrounds matter and linking them to the game. You created the remote island and the prison, so you got to choose who was there. Making them align with the characters in the game makes it more interesting to me if I'm one of your players. In a lot of cases, the way you're describing the game is going to keep me at arms length from getting involved with it. And maybe that's what you want to do, having a more "this is the world, and you're just a small part in it," is an approach that it seems a fair number of GMs like to do. I've played in a lot of games like that over the years and they make me say "I'm dropping into this world and then I'll leave it," rather than being a real part of it.

What it does for me is make me say "I wish I was in that party that's more interesting than ours." I think it's been said a number of times already, but it's always possible to say "no" as a GM and have it be logically consistent, since you made up the world and put everything in it. I'd just ask how it's better world building to do that as opposed to building it around what your group does with their characters.

I really do get how a lot of the things I'm talking about are more based in other rule systems, but nothing I'm talking about breaks any existing D&D rules.

Backgrounds in my games do give people a leg up in various situations if the player wants, I was discussing specific features like getting a message to your criminal contact.

Use of background features has to make narrative sense. However, I've never even seen a game where background is that heavily utilized. I've tried making them important and it rarely has much impact. For most people, backgrounds only matter for the skill proficiencies they get.
 

mamba

Legend
This is inaccurate.

The background indicates that you work with the DM to determine the particulars of your noble house, etc. It doesn’t say anywhere that the feature only works in certain circumstances, or that the feature working is contingent on what you decided with DM.
you may be technically right that the background says so and the feature does not, but I really do not care. As I wrote earlier about the same 'complaint', this is now a law, it is a guideline. When it does not make sense in the current situation, it does not guarantee an audience - and yes, that is decided by the GM.
 

Oofta

Legend
That's not really the noble background, but more of an ex-nobility background. There's a reason 5th sons were shipped off to the monasteries. Lord Bonobo can expect to be met with and put up in the baron's castle. The 5th son of Lord Bonobo wouldn't have the pull to automatically get an audience with other lords.

See, if they have the power it's not an abuse to use it. That's why I don't grant it unless I'm willing to see it used.
My examples were taken directly from the background description.
 

A PC using the Sailor background to get passage on a ship when wanted for murder.
Heaven forbid that a D&D game should include a scene reminiscent of the opening pages of Queen of the Black Coast, one of the most famous of all S&S stories!
Good point! If a captain decided to risk his neck to smuggle me and my friends out of the city when I was wanted for murder, you’d better believe that I would be ready to jump at any future adventure hook to help him get out of trouble 3 sessions from now!
 

neither do I, I am not sure what your point is ;)

I am not allowing the surge every time and the audience never. If every once in a while there is no audience despite this text, then so be it. The text does not say the audience has to be a success, I see no reason why it needs to even happen, that is all.
The text says that the fighter can surge once per short rest. In what circumstances are you denying the surge?
 

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