D&D General What is player agency to you?

[Mort]

Only if we lived in a better world......

Well....it's not exactly equals. I'm a very experienced extreme harsh 'exploiter', and they are awkward fruit loops that don't have a row to hoe.

Apparently when I said you hold your players in contempt I was understating things.

Really, you should just tell them your game is not a fit for them.

. Well...it is my game or no game.

Considering your view of the players and your admitted treatment if them? No game seems preferable. No one deserves to be treated with contempt at the table.

We don't use that word "trust" the way you do.

I get "trust" is important to you....not so much me or the good players.

You asked for other/alternate points of view to yours. You shouldn't be surprised when you get them.

I never said I was miserable. Only the bad players have problems.

Again, rather than heap more insults on them, just let them know the game isn't a fit and move on

 

[hawkeyefan]

Acolyte: You and your adventuring companions can expect to receive free healing and care at a temple, shrine, or other established presence of your faith, though you must provide any material components needed for spells.
Charlatan: You have created a second identity that includes documentation, established acquaintances, and disguises that allow you to assume that persona.
Criminal: You have a reliable and trustworthy contact who acts as your liaison to a network of other criminals. You know how to get messages to and from your contact, even over great distances; specifically, you know the local messengers, corrupt caravan masters, and seedy sailors who can deliver messages for you.
Entertainer: You can always find a place to perform, usually in an inn or tavern but possibly with a circus, at a theater, or even in a noble's court. At such a place, you receive free lodging and food of a modest or comfortable standard (depending on the quality of the establishment), as long as you perform each night. In addition, your performance makes you something of a local figure. When strangers recognize you in a town where you have performed, they typically take a liking to you.
Folk Hero: Since you come from the ranks of the common folk, you fit in among them with ease. You can find a place to hide, rest, or recuperate among other commoners, unless you have shown yourself to be a danger to them. They will shield you from the law or anyone else searching for you, though they will not risk their lives for you.
Guild Artisan:
As an established and respected member of a guild, you can rely on certain benefits that membership provides. Your fellow guild members will provide you with lodging and food if necessary, and pay for your funeral if needed. In some cities and towns, a guildhall offers a central place to meet other members of your profession, which can be a good place to meet potential patrons, allies, or hirelings.
Guilds often wield tremendous political power. If you are accused of a crime, your guild will support you if a good case can be made for your innocence or the crime is justifiable. You can also gain access to powerful political figures through the guild, if you are a member in good standing. Such connections might require the donation of money or magic items to the guild's coffers.
You must pay dues of 5 gp per month to the guild. If you miss payments, you must make up back dues to remain in the guild's good graces.
Hermit:
The quiet seclusion of your extended hermitage gave you access to a unique and powerful discovery. The exact nature of this revelation depends on the nature of your seclusion. It might be a great truth about the cosmos, the deities, the powerful beings of the outer planes, or the forces of nature. It could be a site that no one else has ever seen. You might have uncovered a fact that has long been forgotten, or unearthed some relic of the past that could rewrite history. It might be information that would be damaging to the people who or consigned you to exile, and hence the reason for your return to society.
Work with your DM to determine the details of your discovery and its impact on the campaign.
Noble: Thanks to your noble birth, people are inclined to think the best of you. You are welcome in high society, and people assume you have the right to be wherever you are. The common folk make every effort to accommodate you and avoid your displeasure, and other people of high birth treat you as a member of the same social sphere. You can secure an audience with a local noble if you need to.
Outlander: You have an excellent memory for maps and geography, and you can always recall the general layout of terrain, settlements, and other features around you. In addition, you can find food and fresh water for yourself and up to five other people each day, provided that the land offers berries, small game, water, and so forth.
Sage: When you attempt to learn or recall a piece of lore, if you do not know that information, you often know where and from whom you can obtain it. Usually, this information comes from a library, scriptorium, university, or a sage or other learned person or creature. Your DM might rule that the knowledge you seek is secreted away in an almost inaccessible place, or that it simply cannot be found. Unearthing the deepest secrets of the multiverse can require an adventure or even a whole campaign.
Sailor: When you need to, you can secure free passage on a sailing ship for yourself and your adventuring companions. You might sail on the ship you served on, or another ship you have good relations with (perhaps one captained by a former crewmate). Because you're calling in a favor, you can't be certain of a schedule or route that will meet your every need. Your DM will determine how long it takes to get where you need to go. In return for your free passage, you and your companions are expected to assist the crew during the voyage.
Soldier: You have a military rank from your career as a soldier. Soldiers loyal to your former military organization still recognize your authority and influence, and they defer to you if they are of a lower rank. You can invoke your rank to exert influence over other soldiers and requisition simple equipment or horses for temporary use. You can also usually gain access to friendly military encampments and fortresses where your rank is recognized.
Urchin: You know the secret patterns and flow to cities and can find passages through the urban sprawl that others would miss. When you are not in combat, you (and companions you lead) can travel between any two locations in the city twice as fast as your speed would normally allow.

In the blue corner, we have a jiu jitsu fighter with words. Able to tap people out with semantic choke holds. How will they choke out their opponents?

And in the red corner, we have a muay thai fighter with words. Able to knock people out with their clever punches. How will they knock their opponents out?

I mean, seriously read these things. The interpretation scale (at least in my opinion) is off the charts.

But all fighting puns aside, I am curious to see how the logic we've been applying to the noble feature applies to others.

I mean, to me those are all great. Just lots of material there to draw on and to connect the characters to the world. Really bolsters the very limp social and exploration “pillars”. I think the game needs more stuff like this. Sadly, it seems like they’re replacing background features with feats. Maybe they’ll mimic some of these abilities? One can hope.

Also interesting how some of them include qualifiers, isn’t it? When you look at them all together like that, it’s interesting to see such conditions on some and not on others.

Look at the Sage ability. That’s great. Miss a History or Arcana check? Well, you don’t know, but you do know where you can find out. That could be several sessions worth of play to travel to the place, gain access to the location, learn the information… and all the related activities. This is content generation BEGINNING WITH THE PLAYER.

Look at the Guild Artisan. You head to the guildhall and there are patrons and hirelings and possibly political implications and intrigue. Again… coming from the player’s choice of Background and their use of this feature.

Places to rest and recover… connections to be made… NPCs to care about and to rely on or be relied upon by… sources of information and adventure. All without having to be spoon fed by the DM.

 

[mamba]

Really, you should just tell them your game is not a fit for them.

The players can decide that for themselves too. Sounds like neither side is enjoying it all that, but still enough to rather play than quit

 

[hawkeyefan]

Last I checked I said I have a good reason to deny it, that is not an inclination.

Do you generally permit every harebrained idea to succeed? Because that feels like where you are headed from where I am standing...

I don’t know. What’s harebrained and what’s not? Who decides? Why?

Also, I tend to not “permit” ideas to succeed. That’s what the dice are for.

The notion that a GM "playing" the world is just like a player playing their PC, except the GM has unlimited authority to make stuff up about their "character" with no constraint or framework beyond their own idea of "what makes sense", is in my view a recipe for terrible GMing and bad RPG experiences.

Yup. It’s a really odd take.

yeah, that is what I suspected.... to me that means you are in the 'always' camp

Okay and you’re in the ‘never’ camp!

Neener neener!

yes, I don't think anyone ever thought otherwise

Then there’d be no confusion about the impact on agency.

saying it ruins agency is also wrong, it is a question of how often it happens

I didn’t say it ruins it, I said it thwarts it, which is something you’ve admitted, but with other words.

I'd say redirected, you do not lose your agency because some idea did not work

If it’s because someone else said “that idea won’t work” then yes, you have.

If you try and fail… in D&D meaning you followed the process and rolled dice and didn’t roll well enough… that’s not a loss of agency because your fate is in your hands.

But the DM denying the player’s action? That’s not failure on the part of the player.

 

[Campbell]

Different GM techniques, different sorts of fiction and differing levels of connection to the setting are obviously going to result in more ability to impact how things turn out in a given game. Whether or not anyone is going to call that "agency" is frankly immaterial to these differences. How much and what sorts of ability to impact this stuff is down to preference. What is not down to preference is that these differences actually exist.

"Agency" is not in itself virtuous. Plenty of people enjoy Adventure Paths. Plenty of people have no desire to play the sorts of games where you may play characters who actually run businesses and kingdoms. Our Deadlands game (that focused on our journey West) was more linear than our current Cortex based Cyberpunk game where we're running a gang. We also had a lot more say in what our characters had been through, contacts, etc in Cyberpunk. There's definitely more ability to impact our immediate environment in our Cyberpunk game. That doesn't make our Classic Deadlands game somehow lesser.

Trying to play language games to minimize very real differences and set acceptability criterion for others is the mark of someone who wants to portray some sorts of play as deviant. That's not how this works. We all get to decided what is acceptable and what is not for us individually.

 

[Micah Sweet]

I don’t know… I imagine such an example would be very specific. Actual play examples would probably be best. I can’t offer any because to the best of my recollection I’ve never denied the use of background feat.

I’m not saying there can never be such an example though.



Sorry… that’s not what I meant.

I mean what’s happening at the game level in that moment?

The DM’s ideas and prep are winning out over the player’s ideas. That’s what’s happening.

Saying that has nothing to do with agency is wrong.




No, it means in that moment, agency is thwarted.

That may or may not matter to a group. It may or may not be indicative of the rest of play.

Only if agency and narrative control are the same thing to you.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Well I'm a player (sometimes) and its important to me. I'm also a GM (often), and player agency is important to me in that context also.

Again, you're saying authoring the fiction and agency are the same thing. That's your opinion, but certainly not mine.

 

[Micah Sweet]

I haven't changed my mind over the course of the week! So-called "player narrative control" is a furphy. I'm talking about RPGs that adopt completely mainstream allocations of role, like 4e D&D, Dungeon World and Burning Wheel.

In these games, players get to establish goals for their PCs, and declare actions for their PCs which put those goals, or elements of those goals, at stake. And the GM is obliged to have regard to that in their own framing and narration of consequence.

That's it.

What the heck is a "furphy"?

 

[Micah Sweet]

Acolyte: You and your adventuring companions can expect to receive free healing and care at a temple, shrine, or other established presence of your faith, though you must provide any material components needed for spells.
Charlatan: You have created a second identity that includes documentation, established acquaintances, and disguises that allow you to assume that persona.
Criminal: You have a reliable and trustworthy contact who acts as your liaison to a network of other criminals. You know how to get messages to and from your contact, even over great distances; specifically, you know the local messengers, corrupt caravan masters, and seedy sailors who can deliver messages for you.
Entertainer: You can always find a place to perform, usually in an inn or tavern but possibly with a circus, at a theater, or even in a noble's court. At such a place, you receive free lodging and food of a modest or comfortable standard (depending on the quality of the establishment), as long as you perform each night. In addition, your performance makes you something of a local figure. When strangers recognize you in a town where you have performed, they typically take a liking to you.
Folk Hero: Since you come from the ranks of the common folk, you fit in among them with ease. You can find a place to hide, rest, or recuperate among other commoners, unless you have shown yourself to be a danger to them. They will shield you from the law or anyone else searching for you, though they will not risk their lives for you.
Guild Artisan:
As an established and respected member of a guild, you can rely on certain benefits that membership provides. Your fellow guild members will provide you with lodging and food if necessary, and pay for your funeral if needed. In some cities and towns, a guildhall offers a central place to meet other members of your profession, which can be a good place to meet potential patrons, allies, or hirelings.
Guilds often wield tremendous political power. If you are accused of a crime, your guild will support you if a good case can be made for your innocence or the crime is justifiable. You can also gain access to powerful political figures through the guild, if you are a member in good standing. Such connections might require the donation of money or magic items to the guild's coffers.
You must pay dues of 5 gp per month to the guild. If you miss payments, you must make up back dues to remain in the guild's good graces.
Hermit:
The quiet seclusion of your extended hermitage gave you access to a unique and powerful discovery. The exact nature of this revelation depends on the nature of your seclusion. It might be a great truth about the cosmos, the deities, the powerful beings of the outer planes, or the forces of nature. It could be a site that no one else has ever seen. You might have uncovered a fact that has long been forgotten, or unearthed some relic of the past that could rewrite history. It might be information that would be damaging to the people who or consigned you to exile, and hence the reason for your return to society.
Work with your DM to determine the details of your discovery and its impact on the campaign.
Noble: Thanks to your noble birth, people are inclined to think the best of you. You are welcome in high society, and people assume you have the right to be wherever you are. The common folk make every effort to accommodate you and avoid your displeasure, and other people of high birth treat you as a member of the same social sphere. You can secure an audience with a local noble if you need to.
Outlander: You have an excellent memory for maps and geography, and you can always recall the general layout of terrain, settlements, and other features around you. In addition, you can find food and fresh water for yourself and up to five other people each day, provided that the land offers berries, small game, water, and so forth.
Sage: When you attempt to learn or recall a piece of lore, if you do not know that information, you often know where and from whom you can obtain it. Usually, this information comes from a library, scriptorium, university, or a sage or other learned person or creature. Your DM might rule that the knowledge you seek is secreted away in an almost inaccessible place, or that it simply cannot be found. Unearthing the deepest secrets of the multiverse can require an adventure or even a whole campaign.
Sailor: When you need to, you can secure free passage on a sailing ship for yourself and your adventuring companions. You might sail on the ship you served on, or another ship you have good relations with (perhaps one captained by a former crewmate). Because you're calling in a favor, you can't be certain of a schedule or route that will meet your every need. Your DM will determine how long it takes to get where you need to go. In return for your free passage, you and your companions are expected to assist the crew during the voyage.
Soldier: You have a military rank from your career as a soldier. Soldiers loyal to your former military organization still recognize your authority and influence, and they defer to you if they are of a lower rank. You can invoke your rank to exert influence over other soldiers and requisition simple equipment or horses for temporary use. You can also usually gain access to friendly military encampments and fortresses where your rank is recognized.
Urchin: You know the secret patterns and flow to cities and can find passages through the urban sprawl that others would miss. When you are not in combat, you (and companions you lead) can travel between any two locations in the city twice as fast as your speed would normally allow.

In the blue corner, we have a jiu jitsu fighter with words. Able to tap people out with semantic choke holds. How will they choke out their opponents?

And in the red corner, we have a muay thai fighter with words. Able to knock people out with their clever punches. How will they knock their opponents out?

I mean, seriously read these things. The interpretation scale (at least in my opinion) is off the charts.

But all fighting puns aside, I am curious to see how the logic we've been applying to the noble feature applies to others.

None of those things should be rules widgets in my view. That should all be roleplayed between the player and the GM.

 

[mamba]

Okay and you’re in the ‘never’ camp!

if you believe that, you did not pay any attention

Then there’d be no confusion about the impact on agency.

I don’t think there is, there is a difference about the importance of that impact

If it’s because someone else said “that idea won’t work” then yes, you have.

I disagree, maybe this is the actual difference

In any case, this is going nowhere, so unless there is actually anything new coming up, I’d say we have exhausted this