D&D General What is player agency to you?

the question we are discussing is not how much the players like it, but whether the DM can…
What @pointofyou of you said was a Strawman anyway. Nobody has suggested that the DM just say "nope" to the player when he tries to secure an audience. A good reason is present and is relayed in-fiction to the PC(i.e. the lord is away and nobody is here to put you up).
 

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I mostly agree.

But, I make room for interesting shenanigans.
I don't think it has to be established prior. If the DM knows from his prep that the local lord is gone and nobody is around that can put them up for the night, then that's a valid reason for informing the PC that it isn't going to work this time. Even if the PCs haven't found that out in advance.
 


No, that wasn't a flat out no - that was a No but there is CLEARLY something going on that requires investigation/fixing.

Huge difference.
no, you correctly inferred that from the no, all you got in the game was a 'your request is denied'. It started with

No one said you cannot ask for an audience (that is declaring the action), you simply do not get one.
 
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The point has always been that the more the DM flatly decides the less agency the players actually have. If a rule doesn't do what it says it does solely because the DM so decides that is a pretty explicit removal of player agency. It is absolutely reasonable for the people playing the game to base their decisions on the rules of the game they're playing.
Right, but that falls into the realm of bad DM'ing, which might or might not include player agency.

I'll stick with the Noble Background, since that is the "rules" that are being discussed. Part of the rule says this:

"Work with your DM to come up with an appropriate title and determine how much authority that title carries."

Another part, which is specifically being talked about is: "Position of Privilege: [snip]. You can secure an audience with a local noble if you need to."

Those are tied together. If the player hasn't worked with me, as the DM, to establish who their character is, what their position is, how it applies in this realm/kingdom/whatever, and what their social standing is, then I have nothing to work with in terms of how the NPC "local noble" is going to work. Do their families get along? Is this local noble lower or higher status? Is this local noble the Duke? Are they busy? Are they accessible to everyone all the time? How does this play into the campaign/game that has been established?

Without that kind of background, I can't adjudicate the interaction/encounter.

A player in my game wouldn't have the noble background without discussing what it means, and what access and power accompanies it. Then, I know how to implement such requests.

As an example, I'm running a sandbox in Greyhawk, using the Beyond the Wall Rules. The party is 4 PC's at the moment, one is the son of the local Blacksmith, another is the daughter of the local Baron (Beyond the Wall doesn't have backgrounds, per se, but the Playbook the character was created under leaned in this direction, so we leaned further into it), a third is the son of a disgraced noble house, whose lands were lost in the recent war due to the family fleeing; the fourth is the second son of a noble house allied with the second character's house.

They all have backgrounds, which talk about their houses, their house relationships, the relationship of those houses to the Marchioness and other ruling houses, etc. The characters are free to do whatever they want and go wherever they please. That does not mean that they can decide to adventure with the family's men at arms in tow, or willy nilly spend the family's money, or have an endless supply of horses, or even supplies. But their names and titles carry weight with other families (some, not others), local knighthoods, etc. They invite dignitaries to their home for meals, they make deals on behalf of their parents (which the parents often don't know about), promise to provide supplies to far flung outposts (again, which are nobles promises, but no guarantee of being fulfilled, that's up to the players), etc.

Often I see "player agency" thrown around as code for "I can do what I want and the DM can't say no." That's not really how a game like DnD works, or has ever worked. Sure, some things like spells, and attacks do, but anything exploration, social, survival, etc. has often required working together at the table to adjudicate it, with the final say falling on the DM. And if the DM is just saying "No.", that's a DM issue.

If a player in my 5e game, playing a Noble Background, wanted a meeting with a local noble, I'd need to know for what purpose, and what they hoped to accomplish. Which would be weighed against that character's reputation/renown in the area, how busy or approachable the local noble was, what the local noble would look to get from the meeting, etc. At a minimum, the character would approach or have "their people talk to the local noble's people" about setting up the meeting, etc., making sure all the noble proprieties are properly followed. Then a "Yes, and or but..." or a "No, but..." or "No, however..." Then its up to the player to play it out - follow up and push for the meeting, forget about it, jump through hoops, etc. But its all up to the player. Its never "No." End of.
 

The thugs are just something that happens on my way to the inn. They don't inherently thwart my ability to go there.

Maybe I pay them some coin, or Bluff them or Intimidate them, and they leave. Then I continue on to the Inn.

They're not a unilateral blocking of my ability to declare actions per the rules.
Nobody has unilaterally blocked the noble background ability in this thread either. The action you get to declare is "I go to the local lord because I want to be put up for the night." The ability working or not working once you get there doesn't block your ability to declare the action.
For the fourth time, so what? I describe what I do, then we follow the rule. What happens with a fireball is stated in the spell entry, and what happens with the audience is stated in the background feature entry. Both dictate what the DM is meant to do.
That's almost correct. "Both dictate what the DM is meant to do if there isn't a good reason for the DM to enact a DMG provision and change it." is the correct way to put it.

The game means for the DM to be able to make exceptions to literally every rule in the game if there is reason to do so. That is what the DM is meant to do.
If this is true, then D&D has no player authority.
They have authority over what their character say and attempt to do. That's player agency. Action declarations are what a PC attempts to do, not what a PC does.
 
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Nothing generates more fun at the table than a player looking at an absolute statement that "You can secure an audience with a local noble if you have to" and the DM saying "Nope."
Which is a good reason why that absolute statement shouldn't be in a game where the DM gets to make those kind of decisions. It's anomalous.
 


Specific beats general.

Does this apply to specific rules beating general phrases that describe the DM's authority?

If by nothing you mean everything, then you are correct. Everything I said was relevant to the DM making exceptions to the background abilities.



I agree. And it's the bolded portion that my side is talking about and that the other side is up in arms about.

Yeah, I know. And my point is that it's nothing to get up in arms about.

If you put down the viking hat for a minute, and just think about what this stuff means for play instead of getting up in arms about any challenge to almighty DM authority, I think you'd likely see it's really not that big a deal.

Like, imagine a game where the ability just works. No matter what, the DM just lets it work and the noble character is able to obtain audiences whenever they want.... what's the problem?

You can use all the lampshades you want... logic, consistency, whatever... it seems pretty obviously to be about maintaining the DM's preconceived ideas.

Nope. Player agency = making choices for your characters and having those choices have meaning. That can and does happen when the DM has control. Nothing I posted advocated for the death of player agency.

Not entirely, though that is an example. Player agency is what I can do as a player to affect play.

Nobody has unilaterally blocked the noble background ability in this thread either. The action you get to declare is "I go to the local lord because I want to be put up for the night." The ability working or not working once you get there doesn't block your ability to declare the action.

Being put up for the night might be something I request in the audience, but whether that's granted or not would likely depend on some kinf of roll, I'd expect.

That's almost correct. "Both dictate to the what the DM is meant to do if there isn't a good reason for the DM to enact a DMG provision and change it." is the correct way to put it.

I don't think I should add that kind of phrasing if we're talking about player agency.

They have authority over what their character say and attempt to do. That's player agency. Action declarations are what a PC attempts to do, not what a PC does.

No, that's really not true. Is that applied across the board? As mentioned previously, do you block players from using feats, spells, class abilities, and so on that are described simply as working? Or when the conditions as stated have been met?

I get to say my PC takes a second wind as long as I have a bonus action to do so. I get to cast a spell if I have a spell slot of the appropriate level and it's my turn. And so on. Those actions then have specific effects that are not subject to DM approving them or not.
 

So, here is a question/situation for the team that says "Securing an audience" is exactly like fireball.

We're playing D&D - say set in Faerun - and the level 1 PCs are somehow transported into the actual (fictional) Washington DC. One of the PCs happens to have the noble background and declares that he will secure a meeting with the President of the United States - who is very arguably a type of noble/ruler.

How do you justify this person meeting the sitting President? As in, if I ask you "how" what is your answer?
 

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