D&D General What is player agency to you?

[pemerton]

And people perform a song and dance instead of simply saying ‘yes’ or ‘no’

So let’s go back, the players ask in Buckingham Palace for an audience with the king. After doing so (and before getting an answer) one points out ‘we are in a different world, no one knows us, they won’t recognize our nobility and think we are just some crazy people’. The players discuss this idea and decide that yes, this is in fact a much more reasonable expectation.

So, given how the rule is written (no exceptions, they will be recognized), do they get their audience or not? In other words are they able to violate game rules while at the same time insisting that under no circumstances whatsoever the DM could.

You're asking questions that can only be answered in context, without context.

What you're asking is can the players and GM, by consensus, suspend the rule for the Noble background? My answer is, it depends on a whole lot of other considerations and expectations particular to that table.

For instance, suppose that in a previous session the Position of Privilege feature had mean that the Noble PC had had trouble passing incognito, disguised as a day labourer. (In Burning Wheel, the Mark of Privilege trait - which all born noble PCs have, at least to start with - imposes +1 obstacle to Falsehood and Inconspicuous test when pretending to be of lower station.) Would it be a type of "cheating" for everyone to now conveniently ignore that past episode?

I would not expect every table to go the same way on this.

 

[mamba]

You're asking questions that can only be answered in context, without context.

you are making this much too complicated, we are still playing 5e here, so what Burning Wheel needs is not really of interest

What you're asking is can the players and GM, by consensus, suspend the rule for the Noble background? My answer is, it depends on a whole lot of other considerations and expectations particular to that table.

No, I was asking can the players decide that, the GM is not involved. We already established that he is not supposed to have an opinion on things and just follow the rules. So the question now is, are the players bound by them too, does the DM enforce them on the players.

 

[CreamCloud0]

I negate your agency by agreeing with you!

what decisions you make Won't Actually Matter if everything you decide to do will succeed regardless of their actual chances of success, that's what is being said.
i don't have any agency if no matter where i fire an arrow it is declared a bullseye anyway.

 

[soviet]

what decisions you make Won't Actually Matter if everything you decide to do will succeed regardless of their actual chances of success, that's what is being said.
i don't have any agency if no matter where i fire an arrow it is declared a bullseye anyway.

The analogy would be getting to roll to hit, surely. Even a guaranteed audience with the king doesn't mean he automatically gives you whatever you want from him.

And this itself is locked behind an ability that allows the PC to do that.

 

[Aldarc]

what decisions you make Won't Actually Matter if everything you decide to do will succeed regardless of their actual chances of success, that's what is being said.
i don't have any agency if no matter where i fire an arrow it is declared a bullseye anyway.

Sorry, but this argument IMHO is absurd if not something of a bad faith argument. You do know that failure is an integral and common part of these games that pemerton and others like playing, right?

 

[Oofta]

Not because they claim to be a noble. Because they are a noble. Hence, as I already posted, people are inclined to think the best of them, and they are welcome in high society. People assume they have the right to be wherever they are, and other people of high birth treat them as a member of the same social sphere.

As I also posted, it seems to be one natural pathway to the audience would be going to an upmarket party. But obviously there are many other possibilities.

The only thing that makes a noble special is a title, a sense of entitlement, and the social constructs of the society they live in that respect the title. Take them out of the culture that respects that title and they are no longer special.

 

[mamba]

Even a guaranteed audience with the king doesn't mean he automatically gives you whatever you want from him.

why not? The DM is only there to help the players, any obstacle he places in their way that does not come from a rule, and all hell breaks loose. So how is the DM denying things in the audience without removing player agency?

You accept it during the audience but not about getting one? What is the difference between not getting an audience and getting everything denied during an audience? For good measure, the king is hostile and insults you on top… now what? You are happy you got one and are on your merry way? Did I find a ‘loophole’?

 

[Oofta]

Sorry, but this argument IMHO is absurd if not something of a bad faith argument. You do know that failure is an integral and common part of these games that pemerton and others like playing, right?

Apparently not when it comes to background features. Those seem to always work no matter what the circumstances.

 

[Scott Christian]

One deals with an NPC and that NPCs situations, wants and choices, and the fireball really doesn't unless someone with counterspell is nearby.

@pointofyou

I would also argue that I have seen many DMs declare shenanigans once a PC casts fireball; whether it's cave-ins because of a small cave, casting it underwater, etc. It still relies on DM interaction.

Then the question becomes if the PC was trying to cause a cave-in with the fireball and the DM didn't allow it, are they removing player agency?

 

[Aldarc]

The only thing that makes a noble special is a title, a sense of entitlement, and the social constructs of the society they live in that respect the title. Take them out of the culture that respects that title and they are no longer special.

That may be true in the real world, but this is a fantasy world where the metaphysical reality is quite different from ours. Likewise, your assertion is also not true in a fantasy world like Tolkien's: e.g., Aragorn.

As I said before, there are gods in the multiverse who have the portfolio of nobility, suggesting that there may be a metaphysical essence or reality to "nobility" in the same way that there is for "evil," "good," or "chaos." You want to extrapolate what a "realistic" world would be like for your world-building? Then maybe start doing it by looking at the deeper implications of the D&D multiverse and its metaphysical reality! A god of nobility may even be pushing things behind the scenes to help that audience happen and reinforce the lawful structures of nobility in the cosmos.