D&D General What is player agency to you?

[soviet]

why not? The DM is only there to help the players, any obstacle he places in their way that does not come from a rule, and all hell breaks loose. So how is the DM denying things in the audience without removing player agency?

You accept it during the audience but not about getting one? What is the difference between not getting an audience and getting everything denied during an audience? For good measure, the king is hostile and insults you on top… now what?

Agency is having a reasonable opportunity to try

 

[Aldarc]

Agency is having a reasonable opportunity to try

Tried and failed? No. Tried and died.

 

[soviet]

No you cannot put your hand in the Bene Gesserit's box! They don't even know who you are!

 

[mamba]

Agency is having a reasonable opportunity to try

so audience, absolutely, everything denied during it is just fine? Who decides that you had a reasonable opportunity? The outcome is the same, maybe I just wanted to avoid a two hour long discussion with my players about whether I can deny it?

Net loss, 30 min for having to roleplay the audience, net gain of 90 min for avoiding the discussion. The train is now slightly behind schedule, but at least the players are still on board?

 

[Oofta]

That may be true in the real world, but this is a fantasy world where the metaphysical reality is quite different from ours. Likewise, your assertion is also not true in a fantasy world like Tolkien's: e.g., Aragorn.

As I said before, there are gods in the multiverse who have the portfolio of nobility, suggesting that there may be a metaphysical essence or reality to "nobility" in the same way that there is for "evil," "good," or "chaos." You want to extrapolate what a "realistic" world would be like for your world-building? Then maybe start doing it by looking at the deeper implications of the D&D multiverse and its metaphysical reality! A god of nobility may even be pushing things behind the scenes to help that audience happen and reinforce the lawful structures of nobility in the cosmos.

One aspect of 4E (not a slam against 4E, no game is for everyone) is the way we were just told "Don't try to make sense of it, it just works" attitude. How can you knock an amorphous ooze prone? Who knows? It just works!

There is nothing in the rules that say that nobles are supernaturally special. The description of nobles even includes "a former merchant just elevated to the nobility". If nobles are supernatural in your campaign, so be it. I don't want a supernaturally supported caste system in my game. It also doesn't explain several other background features. The rules of the game enable me to play a character in a fantasy realm, they're an expression of what the characters are doing. They don't define the world. At least not for me.

 

[FrogReaver]

Agency is having a reasonable opportunity to try

I think this is a good answer and good direction- but a few follow up questions.

Can a DM give the players a reasonable opportunity to try? If he can then can his answer can ultimately be no?

 

[soviet]

I think this is a good answer and good direction- but a few follow up questions.

Can a DM give the players a reasonable opportunity to try? If he can then can his answer can ultimately be no?

I'm not entirely sure what you mean, you're talking about convincing the DM rather than making a dice roll?

 

[Maxperson]

@pointofyou

I would also argue that I have seen many DMs declare shenanigans once a PC casts fireball; whether it's cave-ins because of a small cave, casting it underwater, etc. It still relies on DM interaction.

Then the question becomes if the PC was trying to cause a cave-in with the fireball and the DM didn't allow it, are they removing player agency?

One of my pet peeves with 5e is the spell stupidity. You can have a library clerk walking down the hallway carrying an armload of paper scrolls out in the open, with more poking out of satchels and a fireball can't set paper on fire, but the wood planks on the ground next to her, those can catch fire!

As a result, I will often modify spells to be able to affect things that 5e's kid gloves took away. I allow spells that target creatures that deal damage to for the most part also affect objects. And I have spells like fireball affect easily flammable objects carried. So in that way I do DM "shenanigans" I suppose, but the players know about that possibility from session 0.

 

[Oofta]

Agency is having a reasonable opportunity to try

But agency does not mean their attempt is successful. Nor does it mean that everything they can think of trying, even an option normally available, is possible.

An archer can only fire an arrow if they have a bow. In my campaign a noble can only get an audience if their station of privilege is recognized.

It has nothing to do with agency, it's about not having a guarantee that every option is always available.

EDIT: it also doesn't mean a noble background and knowledge of how these things work won't be helpful in finding an alternative way to get an audience.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Lol. I liked 4e. I like 5e more. I like Stars without Number even more. *I really need to try Worlds without Number.

I love Stars Without Number!