D&D General What is player agency to you?

[mamba]

I'm not entirely sure what you mean, you're talking about convincing the DM rather than making a dice roll?

when are the players satisfied that they had a reasonable chance, despite their request being denied? Can the DM just say so? Does it take a die roll? Who determines the DC?

 

[FrogReaver]

I'm not entirely sure what you mean, you're talking about convincing the DM rather than making a dice roll?

Not exactly. I’m asking whether there’s any way a dm can decide (either No or yes) while maintaining a players reasonable opportunity to try

 

[Micah Sweet]

Again, dragons are clearly fantasy creatures. Do you deny this? A noble may or may not have a supernatural aura of nobility, but the rules don't make that clear, and they need to if "social magic" is a thing, because otherwise I will assume they are regular people who happen to have a lineage and/or a title.

I have no problem with such a thing existing, actually, but with otherwise normal-appearing people it needs to be called out, just like anything else that isn't obviously beyond the mundane (like flying dragons).

 

[Micah Sweet]

We left it quiet because literally no one came close to arguing any of that in this thread. It was all extreme hyperbole, but without even the constructive goal that my egg example had.

Yeah, it does seem like rhetoric with no purpose other than to inflame.

 

[soviet]

But agency does not mean their attempt is successful. Nor does it mean that everything they can think of trying, even an option normally available, is possible.

An archer can only fire an arrow if they have a bow. In my campaign a noble can only get an audience if their station of privilege is recognized.

It has nothing to do with agency, it's about not having a guarantee that every option is always available.

EDIT: it also doesn't mean a noble background and knowledge of how these things work won't be helpful in finding an alternative way to get an audience.

This is all fine. The difference here is that the PC has an ability that specifies that they can get the audience.

 

[chaochou]

Agency in a game is a product of inviolable rules which players know and can rely on to achieve known goals.

Each of these elements are placed under considerable stress by a lot of rpg play, which typically:

• does not treat rules as inviolable (for the GM)
• features no reliability in resolution for key elements of gameplay and passes it all to the GM to resolve
• assumes the GM will create ad-hoc resolution processes - with resultant lack of transparency for players
• assumes the GM sets goals in secret

High agency rpg play typically features:

• No agreement that the GM / MC / narrator can unilaterally disregard the rules
• Transparent rules and processes that offer guaranteed outcomes (good and bad)
• Transparent goals for characters - often through authorship of them by the players
• Faciliatation of that authorship through group creation of setting and/or situation such that character goals are given meaning and context by player choice, not secret GM backstory

 

[soviet]

Again, dragons are clearly fantasy creatures. Do you deny this? A noble may or may not have a supernatural aura of nobility, but the rules don't make that clear, and they need to if "social magic" is a thing, because otherwise I will assume they are regular people who happen to have a lineage and/or a title.

I have no problem with such a thing existing, actually, but with otherwise normal-appearing people it needs to be called out, just like anything else that isn't obviously beyond the mundane (like flying dragons).

Called out how, like a trait that gives you special abilities in the game rules?

 

[Micah Sweet]

That may be true in the real world, but this is a fantasy world where the metaphysical reality is quite different from ours. Likewise, your assertion is also not true in a fantasy world like Tolkien's: e.g., Aragorn.

As I said before, there are gods in the multiverse who have the portfolio of nobility, suggesting that there may be a metaphysical essence or reality to "nobility" in the same way that there is for "evil," "good," or "chaos." You want to extrapolate what a "realistic" world would be like for your world-building? Then maybe start doing it by looking at the deeper implications of the D&D multiverse and its metaphysical reality! A god of nobility may even be pushing things behind the scenes to help that audience happen and reinforce the lawful structures of nobility in the cosmos.

Or, if nobility is supposed to carry supernatural "social magic", as @pemerton suggested, then it is called out as such in the books  somewhere.

 

[FrogReaver]

This is all fine. The difference here is that the PC has an ability that specifies that they can get the audience.

IMO the concern here seems to be more about negation of the ability as written than negation of player agency.

 

[Maxperson]

I negate your agency by agreeing with you!

Haha! Very funny.

Fortunately for me, that wasn't the only thing I said, so your humor is just that and not actually a point against what I said.