D&D General What is player agency to you?

Yes. More than once in this thread people have said the ability should always work. That was the point of my asking the egg on the lifeless plane question. To try and see if one of those folks were willing to walk back from the "always" portion of an ability like that.

Yes, I’ve said that the ability should always work (absent a compelling reason for it not to). And having run games where the ability always works, I can say that the concerns expressed about it are imaginary.

If they DM is going to always or almost always find a way to say yes, then I'm being herded down the quite often boring pathway of success. Failure has meaning as well, and very often results in a different avenue of enjoyment.

But that’s not what’s happening. Again, this is either your mischaracterization of this style of gaming, or else you’re not understanding it at all.
Because I don't remember having seen it.

You’ve said it. Look at the quote above. Look at your posts about this style of GMing being “railroading via success”. Look back over the thread you’ll see it all over the place.

I thought that obvious by the way I said, "...but all I can remember seeing is the idea that it's not a perfect ability that can fail when in-fiction circumstances reasonably would result in failure."

Yes, people have said that in regard to how they prefer the ability works. And that’s fine. But they’ve also added all kinds of assumptions about how the ability must impact play if it’s always allowed, that are simply not true.

Easy mode, inconsistent, incoherent, determining the outcome, and on and on.
 

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I'll say it.

It's very common for Young, Inexperienced, or "fan of the characters"/"Best Buddy" Type GMs.

And it's just about the definition of the Casual DM:They want to sit back and have the Players do most,nearly all the "work".

Yes you’ll say it, but I don’t think you actually have any experience with the kinds of gaming being suggested by some folks, nor that you’re really understanding what’s being described.

Your description of it makes this very clear.
 

I find this account of an additional standard that applies in D&D not the most plausible account! The closest I can get to finding it plausible is to rewrite it as "the thing that the GM thinks is most plausible", or even better "the thing the GM thinks is the best fit with what they are imagining in the situation".

This I think is true.

My view is that this is not about standards but about techniques. The techniques that are typically used in D&D - reading consequences more-or-less directly off the notes (say "Save vs Petrification or take 2d6 damage from the pendulum blade trap), or the GM extrapolating more-or-less immediate causal consequences from their notes and their conception of the fiction - tend to produce fewer twists and turns.

For instance, consider the Dreadnought hoax that was mentioned upthread. In my experience, the typical GM of a D&D game is not going to regard that as the best fit with their conception of the fiction, and so it won't happen. Or for a fantasy version, Bilbo's hijinks with the spiders in Mirkwood.

If we go beyond hoaxes and trickery, let's think of chance meetings: Merry and Pippin meet Treebeard; Aragorn, Gimli and Legolas meet Eomer; Conan meets Pelias the wizard; the whole drama of Turin Turambar is driven by chance meetings.

I think the encounter and reaction rules in classic D&D are intended, among other purposes, to help produce these sorts of events as components of the game - and not unlike the player's use of their Noble background, these often require the GM to invent some account, in the fiction, of why things happen as they do (eg the roll of 12 tells us that the Ent enthusiastically befriends the Hobbits - what explains this in the fiction?). The difference between my preferred approach and the classic approach is that the random elements are more tightly anchored to resolution of player-declared actions, and the elements of the fiction are more tightly related to priorities the players have established for their PCs.
That's actually why I don't like them as much. My preference is for it not to necessarily be the case that "random" events are in fact happening for the PCs dramatic benefit.
 


Bringing the players in on this underscores how important they are as the writer/artist of their heroes
that is what I was looking for, so you are still not the one saying ‘and this happens’, you just say ‘let’s wrap this up, tell me what happened’ (based on the current state in game)

So no way for the DM to abuse it, but the players could
 

that is what I was looking for, so you are still not the one saying ‘and this happens’, you just say ‘let’s wrap this up, tell me what happened’ (based on the current state in game)

So no way for the DM to abuse it, but the players could
But what's the point in criticizing game design on the basis of 'someone could play badly and F it up'? Now, maybe there are some types of play that especially hard to get right, but IME modern iterations of trad play are actually not that easy to do well! I don't have any real hard evidence as to what's statistically more likely to work at more tables, but I think simple rules and straightforward techniques that apply consistently are always best in ANY endeavor!
 

I find this account of an additional standard that applies in D&D not the most plausible account! The closest I can get to finding it plausible is to rewrite it as "the thing that the GM thinks is most plausible", or even better "the thing the GM thinks is the best fit with what they are imagining in the situation".
no complaints
 



I'll say it.

It's very common for Young, Inexperienced, or "fan of the characters"/"Best Buddy" Type GMs.

And it's just about the definition of the Casual DM:They want to sit back and have the Players do most,nearly all the "work".

This is contrary to my experience.

IME most young/inexperienced DMs are much MORE stingy with information/allowing the players to "do stuff." They tend to be fearful of the group "too easily" solving their scenarios.

and then IME, As they get more comfortable with running many DMs tend to start becoming MORE not less permissive with allowing player creativity/activity.
 
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