D&D 4E Ben Riggs' "What the Heck Happened with 4th Edition?" seminar at Gen Con 2023

[Voadam]

This assumes everyone plays the same way.

I think it was more focused on turning aspects that had been in D&D lore but were hard to interact with and making them immediately gameable to most groups. So the elemental plane of fire had been a place you could go in 1e-3e, but only if you had enough magic to make you immune to constant fire and able to breathe fire air. A 20th level group without the right specific magics will die in a matter of rounds from environmental exposure. There is neat AD&D lore about elemental powers and efreeti and azers and such, but it is fairly hard to interact with stuff there directly. The 4e Elemental Chaos is designed so that it is not just a neat elemental planar concept but a place that most adventurers could conceptually just go and adventure.

 

[overgeeked]

I think it was more focused on turning aspects that had been in D&D lore but were hard to interact with and making them immediately gameable to most groups. So the elemental plane of fire had been a place you could go in 1e-3e, but only if you had enough magic to make you immune to constant fire and able to breathe fire air. A 20th level group without the right specific magics will die in a matter of rounds from environmental exposure. There is neat AD&D lore about elemental powers and efreeti and azers and such, but it is fairly hard to interact with stuff there directly. The 4e Elemental Chaos is designed so that it is not just a neat elemental planar concept but a place that most adventurers could conceptually just go and adventure.

That’s one of my favorite bits of 4E. They accepted it was a game meant to be played and that anything that couldn’t actually be used at the table was wasted. They made it so everything could be used at the table. The World Axis cosmology and the Elemental Chaos is so much better, more useful, and interesting than the Great Wheel cosmology and the near insta-death elemental planes.

 

[Alzrius]

I think it was more focused on turning aspects that had been in D&D lore but were hard to interact with and making them immediately gameable to most groups. So the elemental plane of fire had been a place you could go in 1e-3e, but only if you had enough magic to make you immune to constant fire and able to breathe fire air. A 20th level group without the right specific magics will die in a matter of rounds from environmental exposure. There is neat AD&D lore about elemental powers and efreeti and azers and such, but it is fairly hard to interact with stuff there directly. The 4e Elemental Chaos is designed so that it is not just a neat elemental planar concept but a place that most adventurers could conceptually just go and adventure.

I'm of the opinion that things like the inherent hostility of the elemental planes in earlier editions of the game are a feature, rather than a bug. Those planes being hard to adventure in is how you know that they're meant for higher-level groups, and so require greater preparations, which are in and of themselves adventure fodder. Do you need to craft certain magic items to be able to survive on the Plane of Fire? Better go adventuring so that you can get the ingredients you need in order to craft them! Is there a wizard in town with a spell you'll need for the process? You better believe that he has a quest he wants you to fulfill in exchange for letting you learn it!

Not everything should be available at the lower-levels or mid-levels. The planes as high-level adventuring grounds (at least in part; you can adventure in the Outlands (aka Concordant Opposition) or similar not-too-hostile planes just fine) is an idea that I think works very well, because they both showcase what you're able to do as higher-level characters, but also because just going there can be a series of adventures in-and-of themselves.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

This assumes everyone plays the same way.

No more so than any other edition of D&D. I'd reject any assertion that singles it out.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

I'm of the opinion that things like the inherent hostility of the elemental planes in earlier editions of the game are a feature, rather than a bug. Those planes being hard to adventure in is how you know that they're meant for higher-level groups, and so require greater preparations, which are in and of themselves adventure fodder. Do you need to craft certain magic items to be able to survive on the Plane of Fire? Better go adventuring so that you can get the ingredients you need in order to craft them! Is there a wizard in town with a spell you'll need for the process? You better believe that he has a quest he wants you to fulfill in exchange for letting you learn it!

Not everything should be available at the lower-levels or mid-levels. The planes as high-level adventuring grounds (at least in part; you can adventure in the Outlands (aka Concordant Opposition) or similar not-too-hostile planes just fine) is an idea that I think works very well, because they both showcase what you're able to do as higher-level characters, but also because just going there can be a series of adventures in-and-of themselves.

Its not like the EC in 4e is a walk in the park. In fact it can have wildly varying levels of danger depending on what you want. The old AD&D inner planes are exactly one thing, whereas the EC is much more wide open. If you want a limitless sea of elemental fire that can only be withstood using Epic magic, that's perfectly compatible with the EC! So is a magma plain interspersed with islands containing other elements where githzerai monks constantly meditate to stabilize their monasteries against the incursions of Azer firelords (maybe Paragon). You could even have a heroic tier village of Genasi who trade pure elemental substances through a gate with the World, though I suspect it is going to come across as a pretty low threat part of the EC, but still could be an interesting entree into higher level play.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Honestly, just the fundamental portrayal of the World Axis cosmology with its core conflict between gods and primordials is vastly more gameable and interesting in a plot sense than the eternal, unchanging, forever-balance, of the GW cosmology with its implication that nothing you can ever do actually matters much. I never understood what was so interesting about that. Its literally antithetical to the very spirit of Fantasy Adventure.

 

[James Gasik]

Honestly, while I'm a sucker for the classic Great Wheel, I do admit the 4e cosmology lends itself better to a setting like Planescape, where you absolutely are supposed to adventure in the Inner and Outer Planes right out of the gate, instead of having it be exclusively a high level play area.

 

[Zardnaar]

See, my feeling with 4e is that it was BUILT TO BE PLAYED from the ground up. No, there wasn't a lot of impractical and useless trivia type lore. There was a TON of "when the PCs take these guys on here's how they operate, who they hang with, who their bosses are likely to be, etc." type of lore.

The same applies to things like FR. The thinking was "how do we make this interesting and engaging to PLAYERS" instead of just wool-gathering sort of endless trivia and whatnot. When they thought through the fundamental conflicts and driving factors arising within the milieu they made them straightforward, interesting, and gameable.

For me at least this was always the beauty of 4e, it is PRIMARILY an RPG at all levels. It consciously aimed to produce the best possible game experience in terms of lore, setting, etc. Very deliberate design!

Lingbefore I started playing D&D (well 2 years) I found UA, DMG, OA, FF and MM. No PHB. Mechanics didn't matter if didntvreally upstanding the mechanics no PHB.

The hints of life in the curious books got me interested though. That lore is part of the D&D experience for around a decade it was FR and they blew it up. Never bought a new novel after that to this day. Bought 3 last week but they were old ones probably buy another 3 thus week.

If you're a potential new player you think a VCR type manual or a story type one is gonna appeal more?

 

[overgeeked]

If you're a potential new player you think a VCR type manual or a story type one is gonna appeal more?

It's not either, or. You can have evocative and engaging fluff with game mechanics that are clearly written. Besides, people pick up and learn board games all the time. Their instructions are written more like VCR manuals. Doesn't seem to slow them down at all. Anyone know how big the board games industry is compared to the tabletop RPG industry?

 

[Zardnaar]

It's not either, or. You can have evocative and engaging fluff with game mechanics that are clearly written. Besides, people pick up and learn board games all the time. Their instructions are written more like VCR manuals. Doesn't seem to slow them down at all. Anyone know how big the board games industry is compared to the tabletop RPG industry?

Board game rules these days are a few pages and tend to be brightly colored. Big text as well. More of a pamphlet vs a book.

And board games typically have minimal story and are completely different medium.

WotC figured this out they've been pushing the story side of things over mechanics last 9 years.

Proof is in the pudding right? 5E outsold several of the biggest selling D&Ds combined potentially more.