D&D General What is player agency to you?

[hawkeyefan]

So this is sufficiently 'narrative' for you? This doesn't limit your player agency in an unacceptable way?

I don't know. There's not sufficient enough detail for me to know that. But I don't expect 5e to play like a narrative game.

My most basic question would likely be about the character I make... will that matter to play in some way? Will the content of play be significantly different if I play a Noble Fighter out for revenge versus a Criminal Sorcerer who's trying to pay off a debt to a crime lord? Will those things matter to play at all? That kind of thing.

I don't expect a lot of agency from 5e by default... my current game has very little. I prefer more, but that doesn't mean I can't play with less.

 

[Micah Sweet]

I don't know. There's not sufficient enough detail for me to know that. But I don't expect 5e to play like a narrative game.

My most basic question would likely be about the character I make... will that matter to play in some way? Will the content of play be significantly different if I play a Noble Fighter out for revenge versus a Criminal Sorcerer who's trying to pay off a debt to a crime lord? Will those things matter to play at all? That kind of thing.

I don't expect a lot of agency from 5e by default... my current game has very little. I prefer more, but that doesn't mean I can't play with less.

It certainly would make a difference in my game, provided we talk about before the character enters play so I can set up the required world elements needed to meet the player's goals. Then it's up to them whether or not to engage with those elements.

 

[Raiztt]

My most basic question would likely be about the character I make... will that matter to play in some way? Will the content of play be significantly different if I play a Noble Fighter out for revenge versus a Criminal Sorcerer who's trying to pay off a debt to a crime lord? Will those things matter to play at all? That kind of thing.

Yes - in this hypothetical, the sorts of things I plan are directly influenced by things like that. For example, if you're a criminal sorcerer trying to pay off a debt, then I know to include that element in my broader plot.

 

[Oofta]

I'm not saying that you can't be creative as a player. But the burden of the bulk of creativity is on the DM. You said this:



In that quote, you acknowledge that it's less work to play than to DM. This is because there is more burden on the DM to come up with the content of play. As a player, you only have to worry about your character and how they react to things.... you don't have to be as proactive in order to take part in the game.



Yeah, it's in imperfect metaphor. Of course players are contributing. It's just the way they do so is different.

We can shift the burden of driving the game... of being the creative force that is proactively determining the events of play... to the players somewhat. This typically results in more player agency. It's the players prompting the DM, who then reacts. This dynamic, though present in all games, is more present in games with higher agency.

I think that D&D 5e allows for a bit of a range here, and that's what I've been talking about throughout the thread. I believe other games offer more... actually, require more is likely the better way to say it... but I've honestly been trying to stick to 5e only in this thread. As much as possible, at least.



I think you mean being a player is not less creative? I think there's a difference between the level of one's creativity, whether player or DM, and the amount of effort that needs to go into making a game work. I'm talking about the latter. You would seem to agree given your description above about being "grateful that someone else is putting effort into creating the world and making it come to life when I get to play".

Player vs DM is different. Neither is more nor less creative for me. It's a difference between a laser focus and turning on a floodlight. Yes, being DM is more work in general because as DM I need to decide monsters, balance encounters, etc.. But a lot of the work as DM isn't particularly creative, it's picking out monsters that fit what I want to represent. It's physically mapping out locations after the creative bits of "what lies over this hill" is done.

But primarily what I reject is that players are just along for the ride. The role is different but it's just as active.

 

[hawkeyefan]

Yes - in this hypothetical, the sorts of things I plan are directly influenced by things like that. For example, if you're a criminal sorcerer trying to pay off a debt, then I know to include that element in my broader plot.

This sounds fine! It’s pretty much what I expect from 5e. I wouldn’t have any problem playing in a game like this.

 

[hawkeyefan]

Player vs DM is different. Neither is more nor less creative for me. It's a difference between a laser focus and turning on a floodlight. Yes, being DM is more work in general because as DM I need to decide monsters, balance encounters, etc.. But a lot of the work as DM isn't particularly creative, it's picking out monsters that fit what I want to represent. It's physically mapping out locations after the creative bits of "what lies over this hill" is done.

But primarily what I reject is that players are just along for the ride. The role is different but it's just as active.

Then your earlier description seems to have been inaccurate. You said one of the things you like about playing is that, because you DM so often, you get to sit back and let someone else work to bring the world to life.

That doesn’t sound like a description of equally active roles.

As for creativity, I’m not talking so much about the level if creativity as I am the amount of creation. As you day above, the DM has more to do.

 

[Aldarc]

It certainly would make a difference in my game, provided we talk about before the character enters play so I can set up the required world elements needed to meet the player's goals. Then it's up to them whether or not to engage with those elements.

No offense, but I've heard that before from other DMs. In the end? It didn't matter.

 

[Umbran]

It is already off the rails right there, unless you first agreed to limit your agency by playing D&D in the first place

You cannot go off the rails until you've laid the rails. You can't be off the rails until after the group sits down and sets mutual expectations.

 

[Raiztt]

You cannot go off the rails until you've laid the rails. You can't be off the rails until after the group sits down and sets mutual expectations.

...it's just an expression that means 'messed up'.

 

[Oofta]

Then your earlier description seems to have been inaccurate. You said one of the things you like about playing is that, because you DM so often, you get to sit back and let someone else work to bring the world to life.

That doesn’t sound like a description of equally active roles.

As for creativity, I’m not talking so much about the level if creativity as I am the amount of creation. As you day above, the DM has more to do.

I get to focus on different things, it's rewarding in different ways. I can't help it if you misunderstood what I said.