D&D 5E What are the "True Issues" with 5e?

[Ruin Explorer]

Is the new true issue:

5e removed the assumption and bias of magic items from the game but did not replace this design philosophy with anything.​

I dunno if it's the sole issue, but it's certainly an issue. 3E and 4E absolutely required magic items, and arguably 1E and 2E made them basically integral to how D&D was actually played, to the point where not having them meant a lot of play was impossible, and it was seen as abnormal and weird.

Why did 5E remove them from the equation in the way it did? Pure "apology edition" fearfulness and frankly a little bit of irrationality regarding 4E's approach to magic items, which was quite the opposite - not only mandatory, but encouraging DMs to discuss with players what they wanted to see (which some people - mostly not on these boards - fantasized into the players dictating the items - which was never true as matter of fact). Plus, if I'm honest, I feel like there was an element of the classic, which I've been victim of many times phenonom of "It seemed like a good idea at the time!".

But really, on reflection, it wasn't a particularly good, interesting or engaging idea.

Moving away 4E's almost-prescriptive approach certainly was warranted, but basically WotC fled from it like a turned undead blowing Dash actions to get as far as possible away, and ended up ridiculously far away, and in place that, frankly, is rather un-D&D-ish. I'd go as far to say, it's in a little inappropriate for a D&D game to be as distanced from magic items as 5E was. 5E is a lot less distanced now, and 2024 sounds like it's going to have less of a "You don't need magic items!" attitude, even if it technically remains true.

 

[billd91]

Is the new true issue:

5e removed the assumption and bias of magic items from the game but did not replace this design philosophy with anything.​

Assuming that was true, whatever you exactly mean by that... would they have needed to replace it with something?

 

[Micah Sweet]

The Fighter shouldn't 'just a guy who fights well', he should be a 'guy who fights exceptionally well'! Town guards are specifically NOT Fighters.

Nah man, Lightning McQueen IS SPEED! He's gotta be at least as fast as teleportation!

Except they were in many cases in TSR editions.

 

[Stalker0]

Ok. Let's take this hypothetical guy..this Usain Bolt of melee combat. Maybe peak Anderson Silva with a sword..Muhammad Ali in plate mail or something.

And let's move that guy into a D&D context.

Does that guy..Muhammad Ali/Anderson Silva equivalent fight D&D monsters the way D&D fighters fight D&D monsters (e.g. Dragons and Giants)..toe to toe slugging it out until one of them goes down?

I submit that they would not.

This is one of those weird narrative disconnects that comes up often in these discussions, where folks point to the John Rambos, McClanes, and Wicks of action fiction as their target level of capability without reflecting on how poorly that fiction jives with how D&D runs.

D&D melee martials don't get suitcases full of C-4, rocket launchers, and effortless headshots. They will not generally smear mud all over themselves to hide their body heat, creep quietly in the bushes covered in grease paint, or nervously army crawl through ventilation ductwork. They are not setting elaborate improvised booby traps using tripwires, sharpened sticks, and bushels of hand grenades. They are not waiting to engage in melee combat until the beast is trapped or weakened.

Instead they see tractor trailer sized creatures at the height of their powers and say to themselves "I'm gona go in and f...mess that thing up with just this sharpened and/or heavy hunk of metal"

How it's possible to think..Usain Bolt..but with knives or something is beyond me.

Well I think that's the issue right there.

Mr Dnd sees a dragon, a thing the size of a large building, whose breath can melt metal and goes....."oh yeah I got this".
Mr Dnd then sees a 30 ft crossing (which is a touch over the world record)..... "oh nope, no way, no can do"


That's the narrative disconnect. On the one hand, we have this being of prowess so great that he can stand toe to toe with beasts of legend and win. But ask them to do something that is only slightly better than what an actual human has done and that's out of the question.

 

[MichaelSomething]

Human + 1 level = guy at the gym
Human + 15 levels = guy who can fight things the size of a gym

 

[Raiztt]

So your rebuttal to me saying that the humans in the book are not Earth humans is to insist that they are Earth humans, watch me and others demonstrate they are not Earth humans... then insult me while insisting they are not Earth humans.

I admit it's a bold strategy.

My point the entire time is they cannot be both - they have to be one or the other. Either they're humans and need to be held to that standard or they're 'human' and they can be or do whatever. But they cannot be both.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Rules say Medium person can grapple a Large target. Manticores are Large. Grapple done, now he can drag them where he wants to.


If I've seen two dragons already fly by, and someone else drop a car into the Feywild through a portal, I am not going to be shaken by some guy doing it through muscle and willpower. Especially when I saw him, a minute prior, jump from the tallest building in the land, land on his face, get up and dust himself off.

DnD world residents are just built different.

So because the rules say so. ...alright, I guess.

Where does it say DnD world residents are built different? Show me.

 

[Gammadoodler]

Well, superheroes are basically magic. You can't blame him.

Enh..magic, to me has specific connotations as a particular source of power. Requiring it, to me, needlessly shuts down the potential for other types of fantastical elements within a fantasy setting.

It's the "you can have any type of drink you like as long as it's Coke" approach to fantasy settings.

 

[billd91]

Moving away 4E's almost-prescriptive approach certainly was warranted, but basically WotC fled from it like a turned undead blowing Dash actions to get as far as possible away, and ended up ridiculously far away, and in place that, frankly, is rather un-D&D-ish. I'd go as far to say, it's in a little inappropriate for a D&D game to be as distanced from magic items as 5E was. 5E is a lot less distanced now, and 2024 sounds like it's going to have less of a "You don't need magic items!" attitude, even if it technically remains true.

Honestly, I'm glad they did move away from the 3e/4e models of magic items as regularly structured power-ups. It gives the players a lot more freedom to keep the magic items they find that really speak to them rather than dump them in favor of the ones that just give them the most pluses (the Big 6). And considering the AD&D days where we made do with the magic items we found, it's about the MOST D&Dish thing they could have done.

 

[Stalker0]

The hierarchy of speed should go : Chuck Norris > Chuck Norris' Mom > Usain Bolt > Fighter > Barbarian > Monk > Teleportation

Fixed it for you.