D&D (2024) Half Race Appreciation Society: Half Elf most popular race choice in BG3

[Remathilis]

I still don't understand why "Well, we can't condone min-maxing" is a suitable justification for not even trying to develop a system for mixed character ancestries.

So you're going to run into a trifecta of immovable problems here: backwards compatibility, verisimilitude, and customization/complexity.

The only way you get hybrid/Build-a-bear system to work is if every race is built using a system where they are designed fairly equally. That is, you create a point system and every race in the game is balanced to it. Obviously, with nearly 100 different species in the game, that would be redoing them all from scratch. They are deathly afraid of invalidating older material, so that's a no-go.

If given a choice between standard packages and build-your-own, most experienced players will build your own. The ability to swap out weak, uninteresting, or redundant features for better or more useful ones. Players will use for no other reason than people love eeking out extra advantages.

Which will eventually lead to a game where everyone is a hybrid. NPCs might be elves, dwarves, and humans, but every player will want to be a hybrid. If any combo is particularly potent, that one will show up with consistency. We used to joke how in 2e, unless you were aiming for a paladin, half-elf was strictly better than human so our games were full of half-elves and rarely humans. I imagine the same would be true here. Unless the hybrid system produces characters weaker than their parent races, you're going to see hybrids and only hybrids (barring noobs and role-players).

That is a bad mix of problems. And I don't want players opting for dragonborn/tieflings strictly because it's a better combo than dragonborn or tiefling alone.

 

[Micah Sweet]

This would be my only thought.

Imagine an RPG set in the real world where you can pick your ethnicity: Caucasian, African, Asian, Latinx, etc. And then the only options you have for mixed race characters is Asian/Caucasian and African/Caucasian, and if you wanted to a different mix, you had to work with your DM to get them to allow it (and potentially make stats for it). People would be rightly pissed at that.

Now, is it better to say "you can pick any mixed race you want, but that doesn't change your stats?" In some senses no. But the alternative is either a system where you make your own species OR you create a stats for every combo that was, is, or will be.

And for every person saying "you can't compare D&D species to real-world races", then the point of representation is now moot. Several people in this thread have said they feel half-elves (and half-orcs) resonate because they are mixed race. That's fine and that's valid. But what is the game told you there were only two mixed races, and work with your DM if you want to be something else.

The problem is there is NO good solution to this. Hundreds of mixed species statblocks? A "build a species" ruleset ripe for minmaxing? Pick a set of stats and reflavor? Only two hybrids are recognized, the others are invisible" You can't win for losing.

Is any solution they've posited or we've suggested better than what we have now (in 2014 parlance)? I don't think so.

 

[Remathilis]

Is any solution they've posited or we've suggested better than what we have now (in 2014 parlance)? I don't think so.

There is no solution that will fix the problem, and that includes keeping the old system.

I don't envy WotC in this.

 

[Scott Christian]

Racism can be defeated by deleting characters of mixed origin.

Let's think how that sounds.

Racist tropes WotC do not want to deal with can be combatted by just getting rid of half-species. All they have to do is say species can't intermix. It is fantasy. These are different species, not the same species with varying degrees of skin tones. We are discussing something that has a lifespan of 1,000 years versus something that only lives 60 years.
I, am by NO means, saying this is the best option. But, it is one of the easiest they could implement. (See my previous posts regarding how people love to play characters that are not accepted by either world they belong to.)

Yeah, let's expand the audience by actively offending 500 million people...

First, once they make it a precedent that species can't procreate, then they wait five years, and none of the new players will even think about it. If they make D&D more online friendly, then that makes it even easier to simply have an avatar.

h....how is the existence of mixed race/species characters racist?

It's not and I didn't say it was. I said, the easiest way for WotC to not have to worry about it is to the great handwave. Once they eliminate any half, then it becomes a game of tabaxi, lizardfolk, elves, dwarves, dragonborn, tieflings, and humans. They can have all the mixed humans they want, because mechanically, it won't make a difference.

The problem is there is NO good solution to this. Hundreds of mixed species statblocks? A "build a species" ruleset ripe for minmaxing? Pick a set of stats and reflavor? Only two hybrids are recognized, the others are invisible" You can't win for losing.

This. I am just merely postulating that this is the easiest path they have.

Is any solution they've posited or we've suggested better than what we have now (in 2014 parlance)? I don't think so.

I would say no.

 

[Micah Sweet]

There is no solution that will fix the problem, and that includes keeping the old system.

I don't envy WotC in this.

If nothing fixes it, then you stick with the status quo. No option will avoid controversy.

 

[Remathilis]

I can see the how having certain race combinations be the most powerful could be something they don't wanna bring up (like how Paladins selling their soul as Warlocks is usually optimal, just with more eugenics).

Still, if you're giving stats at all to them, you'll end up with some being more powerful than others, or stronger/smarter, even without the ASIs they bring. Using these fantasy races as stand-ins for irl people just leads to a lot of unfortunate implications.

My solution is to offer a single custom lineage with curated traits that can be taken to represent different mixes traits, but are explicity "half-x/y" is the simplest and most elegant solution. It wouldn't need a huge amount of room, isn't prone to breaking when new species come out, and can be internally balanced so that it doesn't end up too powerful.

 

[Remathilis]

If nothing fixes it, then you stick with the status quo. No option will avoid controversy.

Sticking with status quo is not how you fix problems, even if there is no answer everyone will agree on, ignoring the problem is not the ideal solution.

 

[Scott Christian]

My solution is to offer a single custom lineage with curated traits that can be taken to represent different mixes traits, but are explicity "half-x/y" is the simplest and most elegant solution. It wouldn't need a huge amount of room, isn't prone to breaking when new species come out, and can be internally balanced so that it doesn't end up too powerful.

Even with this proposed solution, the uniqueness of culture, racial polarity, and/or stylistic backstory is removed.

 

[Veltharis ap Rylix]

So you're going to run into a trifecta of immovable problems here: backwards compatibility, verisimilitude, and customization/complexity.

The only way you get hybrid/Build-a-bear system to work is if every race is built using a system where they are designed fairly equally. That is, you create a point system and every race in the game is balanced to it. Obviously, with nearly 100 different species in the game, that would be redoing them all from scratch. They are deathly afraid of invalidating older material, so that's a no-go.

If given a choice between standard packages and build-your-own, most experienced players will build your own. The ability to swap out weak, uninteresting, or redundant features for better or more useful ones. Players will use for no other reason than people love eeking out extra advantages.

Which will eventually lead to a game where everyone is a hybrid. NPCs might be elves, dwarves, and humans, but every player will want to be a hybrid. If any combo is particularly potent, that one will show up with consistency. We used to joke how in 2e, unless you were aiming for a paladin, half-elf was strictly better than human so our games were full of half-elves and rarely humans. I imagine the same would be true here. Unless the hybrid system produces characters weaker than their parent races, you're going to see hybrids and only hybrids (barring noobs and role-players).

That is a bad mix of problems. And I don't want players opting for dragonborn/tieflings strictly because it's a better combo than dragonborn or tiefling alone.

And so the only viable alternative is a world where no one can play a mixed ancestry character at all? Because that's functionally where we're heading.

Retaining distinct single ancestry mechanics while turning mixed ancestry into an aesthetic choice effectively means eliminating mixed ancestry from the game system. In the name of expanding options, they are in truth being restricted, and not only are the only ones who benefit from the decision the "true roleplayers" who don't care about their mechanics anyway - and again, that doesn't by any means account for all "true roleplayers", nor should the game be designed solely to cater to them - but anything that made use of mixed ancestry characters or societies now has to be recalibrated to account for it.

Should they move forward with "Pick a Parent" and provide nothing else, the next Eberron book will now either have to reintroduce distinct Khoravar and Jhor'guntaal statblocks (literally just recreating the "legitimate hybrid" options this whole thing was supposed to make unnecessary) or essentially erase them as distinct groups from the setting lore, taking two major population blocks in Khorvaire and three Dragonmarked Houses down in the crossfire.

I understand it's not an easy problem to solve. I just don't find choosing not to try and throwing mixed ancestry mechanics in the bin to be an acceptable path forward.

Min-maxers are going to do what min-maxers have always done - the only way to eliminate min-maxers gaming the system in search of an edge from of the equation is to remove math from the game.

 

[bedir than]

Is any solution they've posited or we've suggested better than what we have now (in 2014 parlance)? I don't think so.

If nothing fixes it, then you stick with the status quo. No option will avoid controversy.

The status quo is that half of the mixed race options primarily come from an evil god with tropes and language used to dehumanize real world cultures