Unpopular opinions go here

[Snarf Zagyg]

Sorry I triggered you with that off-handed use of terminology. But, y'know, ignore everything before the "but"

but even in schemas where popularity or commercial success are all that matter, things closely comparable to TTRPGs, like CRPGs, MMOs, CRPGs, and the like are much more popular & commercially successful than D&D. As successful as 5e/80s D&D has been compared to non-fad D&D, or the extremely niche rest of the TTRPG hobby that D&D accidentally created, and still utterly dominates, it (or TTRPGs generally) may not be as popular as they could have been, if D&D had not boxed itself into the narrow design parameters WotC is working with, today, or, indeed, if the hobby had been accidentally founded by some other nigh-RPG wargame (or actualy RPG), instead of D&D.

Seriously?

D&D (and TTRPGs) is a hobby that requires both a significant investment of time, the ability to get a number of people together, and (until recently) the ability to get them together in the same place. Not to mention that it's a completely different field of entertainment.

Arguing that the most successful TTRPG isn't successful because ... it isn't as successful as computer games, which make more money than the box office returns of movies, is not just engaging in some type of counter-factual bizarre hypotheticals, it's moving the goalposts so far in this conversation that they might as well be on Alpha Centauri for a field goal.

Sure. If pigs had wings, maybe bacon would fly into my mouth. But I'm not sure that the concept has any relevance to an actual discussion.

 

[billd91]

I mean, an ad populum fallacy is an ad populum fallacy, either way, but even in schemas where popularity or commercial success are all that matter, things closely comparable to TTRPGs, like CRPGs, MMOs, CRPGs, and the like are much more popular & commercially successful than D&D.

Closely comparable? I suppose if you take away all of the inconveniences and effort inherent in just preparing to playing a TTRPG - getting a group together, preparing the adventure and characters, reading the rules, etc - all of which must be done before you even start playing! The fact that CRPGs and MMOs remove almost all of that underscores some of the reason why they are far more popular than TTRPGs.

It's a bit like wondering why playing adult football has such a smaller footprint than the NFL. I mean, if I wanted get a football fix, which is easier? Sitting on a Sunday afternoon with beer, chips, and grilled brats watching multiple games or getting 22 guys together who all know how to play, have the equipment, find the space, engage in the physical activity of playing a game (including suffering injuries)? It's not really an enigma why one has many more participants than the other.

 

[Bedrockgames]

I mean, an ad populum fallacy is an ad populum fallacy, either way, but even in schemas where popularity or commercial success are all that matter, things closely comparable to TTRPGs, like CRPGs, MMOs, CRPGs, and the like are much more popular & commercially successful than D&D. As successful as 5e/80s D&D has been compared to non-fad D&D, or the extremely niche rest of the TTRPG hobby that D&D accidentally created, and still utterly dominates, it (or TTRPGs generally) may not be as popular as they could have been, if D&D had not boxed itself into the narrow design parameters WotC is working with, today, or, indeed, if the hobby had been accidentally founded by some other nigh-RPG wargame (or actualy RPG), instead of D&D.

(And, like, the NFL, since you bring it up, is very popular, in America, but actual football (where the foot is applied to the ball most of the time, and the ball is actually ball-shaped) is far more popular, globally. Oddly, not because it causes less traumatic brain injury.)

People have been saying this since I started gaming. At times I have believed it myself. But there have been too many games designed that meet this exact critique of D&D that haven’t made RPGs bigger than movies or video games for me to agree with the reasoning. I think @Snarf Zagyg makes a valid point noting 5E is the most popular RPG of all time. It seems a bit of a reach to argue that is a failure because other mediums are even more popular (barring massive shifts in culture I don’t see tabletop RPGs getting as popular than it has). I will say it has reached unprecedented heights and that is impressive (though I think it’s unprecedented heights are a combo of 5E being the right design and the cultural changes that came with things like Stranger Things and Critical Role).

At this point I think it is pretty clear it isn’t just legacy that makes D&D popular. There are just too many alternatives out there that meet all of the criticisms of D&D. Not saying it can’t be made better for different goals. But if it’s goal is success, this goes back to Snarf’s point about the challenge of making a broadly appealing game: it is hard and it really isn’t about designing to win awards from select audiences. It’s about making a game that appeals to the biggest range of players possible. That means putting together a system that people from all five style debates on these forums can agree to play together: not easy!

 

[Gradine]

Bacon is overrated

 

[Tony Vargas]

Closely comparable? I suppose if you take away all of the inconveniences and effort inherent in just preparing to playing a TTRPG - getting a group together, preparing the adventure and characters, reading the rules, etc - all of which must be done before you even start playing!

The post-pandemic move to VTTs has taken care of a lot of that. Some of it may just be a matter of critical mass, too, I suppose. MMOs are a lot more popular than D&D, they'res a lot more people playing them, it's easier to just join a server and play.... if MMOs or CCGs were tiny niche things, it'd be harder to find others to play with

But, sure, closely comparable in that they're popular with the same sorts of demographics, for the same sorts of enjoyment? Is that unreasonable?

People have been saying this since I started gaming. At times I have believed it myself. But there have been too many games designed that meet this exact critique of D&D that haven’t made RPGs bigger than movies or video games for me to agree with the reasoning.

The critique is that D&D's dominance is a result of it's timing & placement - D&D became a household name back in the 80s, because, of all things, it was connected to satanism and suicide. From then on, it's been the main point of entry to the hobby. That many games have been better than D&D in many a quantifiable way just doesn't matter when it comes to commercial success.
And, with the 80s come-back taking off in 2015, and finally getting out a decently entertaining successful/D&D movie, D&D has only widened its lead!

 

[Bedrockgames]

Bacon is overrated

This. I like bacon. Pork belly stir fry is my favorite, and bacon in the morning is good, but wrapping stuff in bacon or the notion that ‘bacon makes things better’ just doesn’t work for me

 

[billd91]

Bacon is overrated

 

[Reynard]

Bacon is overrated

Sir, there is "unpopular" and then there is "blasphemy."

 

[Thomas Shey]

True, GURPS is really multi-genre, rather than universal, and admitted that a few editions in. That's why I gave it as the example of a system that could run any genre/setting - as long as there was already a supplement out for exactly that genre/setting.

True universal systems, like, Hero, where you can use rules to create everything in a genre/setting, rather than add rules to do so, are rare. (And even Hero is only that way at the high-level view, it does have a few alternate rules that you pick & choose from depending on genre, and it's implementation of skills gets in the way, too, especially in later editions.)

I'm more of a Hero than a GURPS person, and you're right on a couple grounds; you only see a handful of other systems really dig into that (EABA is another example, but one most people have never heard of), and even though Hero can be bashed into many genres halfway well, you have to really work to hide where it got its start (a place that tends to really stand out once you notice it is that once any armor is involved at all, its immensely easier to knock people out than kill them, and that's really an artifact of it starting as a supers game).

 

[Micah Sweet]

Isn't there at least one OSR labour-of-love game doing that, like, any given year?

Absolutely, at least I sure hope so. Your point?