What is a "Narrative Mechanic"?

[Reynard]

No, all things the PC can do can affect the narrative. But, as I see them, narrative mechanics allow the player to manipulate the narrative from the player perspective, not the PC's. It could be by picking particular moment for the PC to use extra metagame resources, by defining part of the milieu involved in the narrative, etc.

But if it is a class ability, it IS the character doing it.

 

[billd91]

But if it is a class ability, it IS the character doing it.

How does that work?
"I know how to pick locks and sometimes I succeed, sometimes I don't. Such is the quirk of fate. But I'm going to infallibly succeed this time for the single time a day I can do so!"

I mean, how does he know that? How does he know it's once/day? How does he know he's going to auto-succeed when normally he doesn't know but just tries his best?

Or is it a player-deployed ability because the player wants the PC to definitely succeed for this clutch moment rather than risk failing? If it's player deployed to manipulate the narrative in a way that the PC can't in-character choose, I think it's a narrative mechanic.

 

[Reynard]

How does that work?
"I know how to pick locks and sometimes I succeed, sometimes I don't. Such is the quirk of fate. But I'm going to infallibly succeed this time for the single time a day I can do so!"

I mean, how does he know that? How does he know it's once/day? How does he know he's going to auto-succeed when normally he doesn't know but just tries his best?

Or is it a player-deployed ability because the player wants the PC to definitely succeed for this clutch moment rather than risk failing? If it's player deployed to manipulate the narrative in a way that the PC can't in-character choose, I think it's a narrative mechanic.

That makes every vancian spell, use of ki and second wind a "narrative" ability and I don't think that is what the word means.

 

[Micah Sweet]

All PC abilities have that potential. By that definition, everything is "narrative."

So the fact that the player is initiated a one-a-day auto success ability with no in-universe explanation from the PC side doesn't make a difference to you? What do you think narrative mechanics are then?

 

[Micah Sweet]

That makes every vancian spell, use of ki and second wind a "narrative" ability and I don't think that is what the word means.

First of all, magic is magic, and it is initiated by the PC and follows in-universe rules, so I think it is immaterial to the discussion. Same with ki. Second Wind is more of a grey area, and I can see it reasonably argued either way.

 

[Reynard]

So the fact that the player is initiated a one-a-day auto success ability with no in-universe explanation from the PC side doesn't make a difference to you? What do you think narrative mechanics are then?

The player initiates EVERY action the PC takes. A narrative ability in the context of this discussion, to me, needs to come from a source outside the character and solely from the player. An ability that is a character ability -- be it spell, skill, item or whatever -- is a mechanical (or "gamist" although i don't want to use that term) ability. Characters do not have narrative abilities -- players do. Again, my definition. the whole point of this discussion is how we individually think of these things. We aren't trying to get a consensus definition.

 

[innerdude]

Here's a classic "narrative" mechanic embedded right within a fairly solidly "trad" / discrete action resolution mechanical framework system.


From Savage Worlds Adventurer Edition, page 52:

Edge Name: Scavenger
Requirements: Novice tier (can be taken at character creation), must also have the Luck edge.
Description: Once per encounter the hero may find, "suddenly remember," or dig up some much-needed piece of equipment, a handful of ammunition, or some other useful device. The Game Master decides what constitutes an encounter, and has the final word on what can and can't be found.

Pretty clearly a narrative mechanic. The player invoking this Edge in play puts something on their character's inventory sheet that didn't exist a second before. Now of course, in-game this is retrofitted to "Oh of course, the character was just lucky enough and intuitive enough to know that Object X would be needed at just the right moment," but it's pretty clearly a game mechanic being invoked by the player in such a way that can't be handled by a direct character input in the moment it is invoked.

The character in the fiction doesn't get to pull a Bill and Ted's Excellent Adventure and say, "Oh, remember the trash can!" so (s)he can go back in time and put that exact thing in the storage bin for when the party needs it.

Trash Can! Remember a Trash Can!!!!!! (Billy Ted) - YouTube

 

[Crimson Longinus]

That makes every vancian spell, use of ki and second wind a "narrative" ability and I don't think that is what the word means.

It’s a bit borderline. I would certainly assume that characters have understanding of how much ’magical energy’ or some such they have left. But closer we get to mundane real world capanilities harder it comes to justify.

Still, I don’t think these or inspiration or willpower or other such ’trying really hard’ mechanics are blatantly narrative. They can’t usually achieve things rolling well could’t have. Blatant narrative mechanics are such that afect the external world without a direct causal link to the character’s actions. In 5e some of the bacground features get near to that territory.

 

[Reynard]

Here's a classic "narrative" mechanic embedded right within a fairly solidly "trad" / discrete action resolution mechanical framework system.


From Savage Worlds Adventurer Edition, page 52:

Edge Name: Scavenger
Requirements: Novice tier (can be taken at character creation), must also have the Luck edge.
Description: Once per encounter the hero may find, "suddenly remember," or dig up some much-needed piece of equipment, a handful of ammunition, or some other useful device. The Game Master decides what constitutes an encounter, and has the final word on what can and can't be found.

Pretty clearly a narrative mechanic. The player invoking this Edge in play puts something on their character's inventory sheet that didn't exist a second before. Now of course, in-game this is retrofitted to "Oh of course, the character was just lucky enough and intuitive enough to know that Object X would be needed at just the right moment," but it's pretty clearly a game mechanic being invoked by the player in such a way that can't be handled by a direct character input in the moment it is invoked.

The character in the fiction doesn't get to pull a Bill and Ted's Excellent Adventure and say, "Oh, remember the trash can!" so (s)he can go back in time and put that exact thing in the storage bin for when the party needs it.

Trash Can! Remember a Trash Can!!!!!! (Billy Ted) - YouTube

This goes back to calling a variable power pool in Hero a "narrative mechanic." Which I don't think it is.

One interesting thing about this ability though: it explicitly requires GM approval. Does that impact how we think of it as a narrative mechanic?

 

[Pedantic]

I don't think that affects @billd91 's point/opinion. In-world, does the character know she has an ability to once a day automatically pick any lock? But only once a day?

I think this hinges on a point of how people view the game fiction and what class abilities represent.

This is part of the ongoing challenge of nonmagical skills vs magical powers. The idea that I am so skillful that I can automatically pick any lock in the world... but that this skill can only manifest once per day, runs afoul of people's conception of how skill works in a real-world sense. If I'm that skilled, presumably I can do that trick all the time.

This is why I think it's a spectrum. You can model that ability as something like "you learn to bring your absolute focus to bear" and then that gets flavored as a 1/day ability because of the presumed effort it takes. That's arguably more narrative than something like "you cannot fail a lockpicking check" but less so than the same ability without any attempt to model why the timeframe is what it is, or the same ability with a "1/session" timeframe, or if the ability introduced a complication later in the adventure as the cost. Arguably any ability on a timescale, 1/day, 1/4 rounds, 1/hour and so on starts to slide slightly up the narrative scale, because effort/expenditure is never going to map that precisely to a timescale.

Magic is easy, because you get to make up the underlying rules directly, and your technique limitations/rules of operation and game structure limitations can just be the same thing.