D&D General Dave Arneson: Is He Underrated, or Overrated?

[Reynard]

That sounds like a theory built to fit a specific data set. Westerns are a period piece medium that dropped in popularity after the 1960s. (Although... Unforgiven, 1992. Wow.) The 'Wild West' era ended... late 1890s? Maybe 1900? So sort of fits that window. Any other 'temporal window' where the popularity of period drama fits within that 60 year time frame? Downton Abbey sure doesn't.

Westerns remain popular. They get nominated for Oscars fairly regularly. There is currently an entire family of westerns on TV. And "space westerns" are probably the most ubiquitous form of popular sci-fi.

 

[Parmandur]

Westerns remain popular. They get nominated for Oscars fairly regularly. There is currently an entire family of westerns on TV. And "space westerns" are probably the most ubiquitous form of popular sci-fi.

Because when Westerns get made now, theybare big budget prestige productions. Yellowstone is a contemporary drama, though it does have big budget period spin-offs, sure.

In the 50's, Westerns were ubiquitous, not occasional releases. Westerns were all over TV, not.juat one franchise.

Space Westerns sort of proves the point. The Mandalorian is echoing tropes from old movies, not trying to accurately recreat Wyoming in 1874.

 

[Ulorian - Agent of Chaos]

Downtown Abbey is the exception recently: there aren't many other interbellum period pieces anymore, because the BBC stopped making them in favor of post-war period pieces: aimilar to how occasianal Westerns like Silverado, Unforgiven, or 3:10 to Yuma come alonf after the gwnre collapsed. This nugget came from a BBC producer explaining why the Fayher Brown series was moved from the 20's to the 50's: to keep it within that window they have discovered through extensive research on how the British public responds to period pieces.

The "Wild West" limped along to WWI or so, so the 60 year window closed around the time the genre collapsed rapidly.

Do you have a link to this research?

The Western declined in popularity within 60 years. But there were popular Westerns made after that period (Silverado, Pale Rider, Unforgiven, the remake of 3:10 to Yuma). Father Brown was moved to the 50s... maybe it was cheaper to find props for that era?

Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon was pretty popular. So was Gladiator. Peaky Blinders? All quite a bit past that 60 year window. Not seeing the trend you're talking about.

Spotting a single common link might indicate a pattern, but it usually does not. That's my peer review of your article!

 

[Reynard]

Because when Westerns get made now, theybare big budget prestige productions. Yellowstone is a contemporary drama, though it does have big budget period spin-offs, sure.

In the 50's, Westerns were ubiquitous, not occasional releases. Westerns were all over TV, not.juat one franchise.

Space Westerns sort of proves the point. The Mandalorian is echoing tropes from old movies, not trying to accurately recreat Wyoming in 1874.

I'm just suggesting it wasn't necessarily a no-go if RPGs had started in '71 with a western theme. How long did it take sci fi games to appear after D&D?

 

[Parmandur]

Do you have a link to this research?

The Western declined in popularity within 60 years. But there were popular Westerns made after that period (Silverado, Pale Rider, Unforgiven, the remake of 3:10 to Yuma). Father Brown was moved to the 50s... maybe it was cheaper to find props for that era?

Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon was pretty popular. So was Gladiator. Peaky Blinders? All quite a bit past that 60 year window. Not seeing the trend you're talking about.

Spotting a single common link might indicate a pattern, but it usually does not. That's my peer review of your article!

I do not have a link, but they were quite specific that Father Brown was set in the 1950's because period pieces set in living memory do better with audiences. That sets are easier to recreate, as Western sets in Souther California were in the 1950's, probavly helps.

4 or 5 prestigious big budget films across a 50 year period again proves the point: when my dad was a kid, there were more than 4 or 5 newWestersn on TV each night, let alone in theaters every year.

Crouching Tifer, Hidden Drafon or Gladiator are historical films, very different from 50's Westerns or 70's Agatha Christoe shows on the BBC which could often film on exact locations with period props and buildings.

 

[Parmandur]

I'm just suggesting it wasn't necessarily a no-go if RPGs had started in '71 with a western theme. How long did it take sci fi games to appear after D&D?

TSR thought that, yet it flopped: people weren't vuying Western tabletop games in the 1979's, or watching shows or movie with a few exceptions.

 

[Reynard]

TSR thought that, yet it flopped: people weren't vuying Western tabletop games in the 1979's, or watching shows or movie with a few exceptions.

TSR didn't start with Westerns. That's the point if the thought experiment.

 

[Parmandur]

TSR didn't start with Westerns. That's the point if the thought experiment.

Starting with Westerns I'm the 70's would have always been a dud. Westerns were passé. The question of why is interesting, bit they were very much out of style.

 

[Reynard]

Starting with Westerns I'm the 70's would have always been a dud. Westerns were passé. The question of why is interesting, bit they were very much out of style.

I think it is important to remember that D&D did not catch fire for half a decade or more. It took years for it to spread word of mouth and then ramp up. I have never seen ant compelling evidence that suggests it would not have at least started its life similarly had it leaned more into the Planetary Romance or Space Fantasy rather than Medieval Fantasy. He'll, D&D could have easily started out as Napoleanic Fantasy given its wargame provenance. I don't think there is any real evidence to suggest that it was the crappy Conan reprint milieu that drove D&D'Souza adoption rather than the new paradigm in play.

 

[darjr]

To be frank, Appelcline's review is (to my mind) one of the least helpful takes out there when it comes to understanding Dave Arneson's True Genius, simply because it only offers modest information about what's there in favor of critiquing the book for how much it goes against Appelcline's beliefs with regards to the development of the hobby. Hence his use of terms such as "Arnesonian revisionism" and "Chainmail denialism." He sees the entire thing as -isms that refute his version of history.

A more helpful review, I think, is this one by our own @Gronan of Simmerya:

Review – “Dave Arneson’s True Genius” by Robert J. Kuntz

Rob Kuntz’ brief monograph, Dave Arneson’s True Genius, is: The most important work written about what constitutes an RPG to date Quite likely the most important work about what constitutes an RPG …

wmusswtwbf.wordpress.com

thank you for this.

I do get that odd giddy feeling when he has to say he was part of a second wave of players, in 1972. That in a way even he feels he must state that he wasn’t there originally.