D&D General Let He Who Is Without Sin Cast the First Magic Missile: Why Gygax Still Matters to Me

Bedrockgames

I post in the voice of Christopher Walken
If you think medieval Europe has gotten ANYWHERE near as bad as the treatment of Arabic/Islamic and Eastern (India/China/Japan primarily, but Southeast Asia and Polynesia have gotten it too), then you truly do not understand the depths to which Orientalism would stoop.

There is no comparison. At best, you could argue that Celtic cultures have been flanderized like that--which wouldn't be too far off the mark, seeing as how the D&D Druid has jack-all to do with the actual defunct Iron Age Celtic priestly caste, and the "Barbarian" is literally derived from a racist Greek term for foreigners (who the Greeks heard as saying "bar bar bar" rather than speaking civilized language, that is, Greek.) But medieval European culture? This is practically copied straight out of their own self-propaganda. The Paladin, for example. (Though it's worth noting, that was propaganda targeted at the knights themselves, not at the peasantry. After all, most peasants couldn't read. The tales of courtly romance and knightly honor were propaganda to get knights to behave themselves, because terrorizing the people who make your food and work your land is a bad idea.)

They were treated differently, I think in large part because OA was inspired by a lot of Chinese and Japanese martial arts media* as well as American martial arts movies that were caught up in the ninja and kung fu crazies but Medieval Europe was pretty poorly portrayed too if you are looking for things like cultural accuracy.

I remember when I went to college and started learning more about the middle ages. D&D was completely off-base in just about every way. Which is fine. It is a game. But it used all of Europe interchangeably, was littered with anachronisms. It also was a lot closer to Europe in the 1700s than in the 1300s in terms of what settings looked like. It didn't have any real sense of what Feudalism and Manorialism were. You could rip D&D apart for its failure to capture European cultures as well (I would even say if you are taking a lens that prioritizes things like sensitivity you would also find problems in how it treated certain European cultures versus others----not sure this is a problem as stuff like barbarians are useful tropes, but many of the same complaints would be there). Now D&D definitely was more familiar with western cultures, as its creators were American. So the odd ball stuff could be much weirder in things like OA.

To go back to my first point though, OA and more European style D&D were grounded in grounded in very different genres of media.

Something some people also probably don't understand is what it was like culturally in the west living in that kung fu/Ninja craze period, when 'karate' was magic. I grew up in the 80s and this stuff was everywhere. Shogun was a big miniseries when I was a kid, Bruce Lee movies were still huge and Bruce Lee was this legendary figure people talked about on teh playground during recess. Chuck Norris was a big star and Hong Kong martial arts movies aired on Saturdays. It is what led a lot of us to get into martial arts as well. In some ways it could be disrespectful. In others it helped create an interest in media from countries we wouldnt' have otherwise explored. But a lot of the ignorance at the time was because this stuff was all in translation. The subs were often misleading. And we didn't know the source material because most of the source material for things like 70s Shaw Brothers wuxia films hadn't been translated into English. A good example is a movie called Web of Death. I highly recommend this film for anyone who is interested in wuxia and wants an example of a highly gameable film. But there is a sequence where I believe one of the masters is meditating and maybe reciting a sutra. But the english dub has him say the lords prayer instead because they didn't think an American audience would get the cultural reference. Also Americans watching it at the time wouldn't know the plot had basically taken scenes from different books in the Condor Heroes trilogy and spliced them together for a unique storyline. Part of my point is this stuff almost became its own genre. It is sort of like if you go into Chinatown and go to a martial arts movie shop (the last one I went to was like 8 years ago so not sure how many of these are around anymore. There is a whole subculture in America around this stuff that is its own unique thing. There is a culture of viewing and appreciating built around the bad subs

*which is worthy of emulation IMO because Hong Kong Films and japanese films were so much better than american movies at the time at capturing action),
 

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Azzy

ᚳᚣᚾᛖᚹᚢᛚᚠ
makes one wonder why he wrote them like that in the first place
I could be mistaken, but I thought it was because to make AD&D a "different" game than OD&D (so Gygax didn't have to give Arneson royalties on AD&D books).
 

Bedrockgames

I post in the voice of Christopher Walken
Al-Qadim is definitely the best of the bunch, Maztica and Kara-Tur are both riddled with issues.

While a lot of these books were imperfect, they did often spur a lifelong interest in topics. Al-Qadim definitely stood out among many of the earlier settings and that ultimately gave me an interest in learning about Middle East History. The Glory of Rome green book is what caused me to devour history books about Rome and start watching things like I, Claudius and Spartacus (the Kubrick film).
 

Micah Sweet

Level Up & OSR Enthusiast
They were treated differently, I think in large part because OA was inspired by a lot of Chinese and Japanese martial arts media* as well as American martial arts movies that were caught up in the ninja and kung fu crazies but Medieval Europe was pretty poorly portrayed too if you are looking for things like cultural accuracy.

I remember when I went to college and started learning more about the middle ages. D&D was completely off-base in just about every way. Which is fine. It is a game. But it used all of Europe interchangeably, was littered with anachronisms. It also was a lot closer to Europe in the 1700s than in the 1300s in terms of what settings looked like. It didn't have any real sense of what Feudalism and Manorialism were. You could rip D&D apart for its failure to capture European cultures as well (I would even say if you are taking a lens that prioritizes things like sensitivity you would also find problems in how it treated certain European cultures versus others----not sure this is a problem as stuff like barbarians are useful tropes, but many of the same complaints would be there). Now D&D definitely was more familiar with western cultures, as its creators were American. So the odd ball stuff could be much weirder in things like OA.

To go back to my first point though, OA and more European style D&D were grounded in grounded in very different genres of media.

Something some people also probably don't understand is what it was like culturally in the west living in that kung fu/Ninja craze period, when 'karate' was magic. I grew up in the 80s and this stuff was everywhere. Shogun was a big miniseries when I was a kid, Bruce Lee movies were still huge and Bruce Lee was this legendary figure people talked about on teh playground during recess. Chuck Norris was a big star and Hong Kong martial arts movies aired on Saturdays. It is what led a lot of us to get into martial arts as well. In some ways it could be disrespectful. In others it helped create an interest in media from countries we wouldnt' have otherwise explored. But a lot of the ignorance at the time was because this stuff was all in translation. The subs were often misleading. And we didn't know the source material because most of the source material for things like 70s Shaw Brothers wuxia films hadn't been translated into English. A good example is a movie called Web of Death. I highly recommend this film for anyone who is interested in wuxia and wants an example of a highly gameable film. But there is a sequence where I believe one of the masters is meditating and maybe reciting a sutra. But the english dub has him say the lords prayer instead because they didn't think an American audience would get the cultural reference. Also Americans watching it at the time wouldn't know the plot had basically taken scenes from different books in the Condor Heroes trilogy and spliced them together for a unique storyline. Part of my point is this stuff almost became its own genre. It is sort of like if you go into Chinatown and go to a martial arts movie shop (the last one I went to was like 8 years ago so not sure how many of these are around anymore. There is a whole subculture in America around this stuff that is its own unique thing. There is a culture of viewing and appreciating built around the bad subs

*which is worthy of emulation IMO because Hong Kong Films and japanese films were so much better than american movies at the time at capturing action),
Agreed. I honor any work done into using historical accuracy to represent any culture you want to draw from. I love history, and generally prefer things to be more accurate than not. But a big reason I love history is because D&D's fractured and inaccurate but exciting take on it inspired me to pursue the study academically. I'll always be grateful to it for that.
 

It isn't official D&D but Tian Xia for pathfinder is an asian setting and my understanding is they bought in people from the cultures and experts. I haven't read the book yet so I can't comment (and I am not a pathfinder person) but that sounds like something one could easily port into D&D if you wanted.
The Tian Xia World Guide would be pretty useful for systems other than PF2e since there isn't a lot of mechanics in it, I would avoid the Tian Xia Character Guide if you don't play PF2e since it's more focused on character options for PCs. And you're right, they worked with both Asian-American creators and consultants that reside in the Asian cultures they were drawing inspiration from to make sure they were being respectful of their cultures. As a white guy, no idea how well they pulled it off but the biggest controversy I remember hearing when it was released was some grumbling on reddit about the lack of samurais and ninjas so I'm guessing they did ok.
 

payn

I don't believe in the no-win scenario
The Tian Xia World Guide would be pretty useful for systems other than PF2e since there isn't a lot of mechanics in it, I would avoid the Tian Xia Character Guide if you don't play PF2e since it's more focused on character options for PCs. And you're right, they worked with both Asian-American creators and consultants that reside in the Asian cultures they were drawing inspiration from to make sure they were being respectful of their cultures. As a white guy, no idea how well they pulled it off but the biggest controversy I remember hearing when it was released was some grumbling on reddit about the lack of samurais and ninjas so I'm guessing they did ok.
Yeap, if its anything like the old Inner Sea Guide from the PF1 era, its a lot of setting info thats not directly connected to mechanics.
 

Mannahnin

Scion of Murgen (He/Him)
Yeah, I've heard this part of the story before. By itself I don't feel like it explains Gary's apparent divergence from the rest of the roleplaying community. Or, I guess, his failure to diverge along with the rest of the community. I can accept that he was burdened by a lot that went on at TSR, but even before all that, by the late 70s Gary seemed to be both really knowledgeable about roleplaying and had some really mean-spirited ideas in the rules he wrote. I think he was clearly deeply conflicted in a lot of ways, but I don't really know why he didn't follow the transition like so much of the rest of the hobby did.

By comparison, looking at things Arneson did and wrote about, even in the early or mid 70s he was going through the Elusive Shift himself. Gary didn't. Gary kind of never did in a lot of ways. That's weird.
Based on my reading and study, and a little bit of speculation, I'd guess that a combination of things went into it.

Gary failing to evolve in his gaming tastes and game ideas is, perhaps, in part being a prisoner of his own success. Whether we credit the invention of the roleplaying game to Wesely or Arneson, Gary was the guy who made it a published product and blazed the trail in that. He saw in that achievement the fulfillment of his life's dreams of being a Great Man and a financial success. Able to live in one of those fancy mansions facing the lake he grew up admiring, able to hobnob with Hollywood producers, never needing to worry again about feeding or clothing his kids, having a drink with lunch, entertaining beautiful women, buying jewels or furs for his wife, or affording a driver to take him places.

After the initial few years of tireless promotion, encouraging people to innovate, and talking about how he and Dave's games ran very differently and so should other people's, he grew jealous of and threatened by rivalries. From Arneson's lawsuits for royalties and credit, from bigger publishers or other conventions like Origins not giving him or "his" game respect. From other people publishing new RPGs and profiting off "his" invention. From the Blumes inside "his" own company owning more shares and thus having the ability to potentially take it all away from him.

I think he got really defensive psychologically, saw D&D as his Golden Ticket, and became more focused on keeping control of it and getting his royalties than on gaming in general. I think these pressures stifled his creativity to a great degree. When you've invented (or tell everyone, or truly think yourself) the First and Greatest of a whole new kind of game, the 800lb gorilla of an industry, what incentive do you really have to get into rival games or try to invent something better or different? He spent the first half of the 80s mostly just trying to make money and keep control of TSR and D&D, while his family disintegrated around him to a significant extent (mother died in 1980, alcohol and other troubles leading to divorce in 1983), and wrote fewer and fewer game supplements.

Once he was forced out in 1985, of course he tried to make some new games, but a lot of those did still seem stuck in the past. When he discussed ideas for 2E AD&D they were pretty much just "compile all the existing stuff, edit it a little better, and add some new classes". Cyborg Commando was spectacularly awful. Dangerous Dimensions AKA Dangerous Journeys notoriously doubled-down on every aspect of elaborate Gygaxian prose, arcane jargon, and unnecessarily complex mechanics that AD&D 1E had, and then was dogged by TSR lawsuits. Some folks liked Lejendary Adventures and it was simpler and cleaner by comparison with DJ, but still I think a bit stuck in the past.

Arneson, by comparison, had incentive to try to innovate. He was arguing by '77 at latest (First Fantasy Campaign), that Gary had messed up his original ideas from Blackmoor and his original game was better than D&D. OTOH, he never managed to publish anything substantive and compelling to an audience.

I don't think Gygax is unique, though. Maybe it was just how they thought game rules should be designed. I think many of Zeb Cook's rules changes for 2e AD&D were aimed at curbing PC power, but they kind of come across as similarly mean-spirited. So many rules have consequences that punish the player. 2e also did weird things like make multiclassing and spellcasters both way better. I don't know.
2E was, I think, handicapped a bit. The design was shaped by a couple of major factors.

1. A mandate from above to maintain reverse compatibility with 1E AD&D products, which prevented them from making bigger changes.
2. Some extensive customer surveying of existing players, which I think mostly captured the expressed desires of people who were already fanatically into the game. I think the mistake of making 3d6 down the line (as in OD&D and the Basic/Expert and BECMI lines) once again the default ability score generation system, but retaining the more demanding ability score charts from AD&D which expected a more generous system, was likely a product of these surveys. Hardcore players asking for a hardcore default version of the game. To the detriment of, say, new players.

Could you clarify how 2E made multiclassing and spellcasters better, in your opinion? The biggest change I always think of there is that multiclassing Magic-Users got weaker because of the new armor restrictions.

I started with B/X or BECMI, but didn't play them long (like 5-10 sessions) before switching to 2e, and then went back to 1e and played a mix of 1e and 2e until 3e came along. But now when I go read OSE or B/X, that edition seems incredibly fair and well-wrought in ways that BECMI, 1e, and 2e don't. Like Thief still sucks, but every other edition of the game made them even worse. The more I really look at the early design of the game, they had the best design and layout in Moldvay/Cook's B/X.
2E has the strongest Thief prior to 3E. Being able to get bonuses to your skills and to adjust/allocate points so you can specialize a bit and make yourself competent fairly quickly in a couple of them is an improvement over OD&D and 1E and the B/X and BECMI Thieves, IMO. But yes, despite the poor Thieves, B/X is probably the pinnacle of TSR-era D&D.

Elsewhere they added a lot of options in AD&D and BECMI, but then they curbed power by being mean about it. Like they have this presumption of curbing power gaming and punishing players that do it, instead of just not making designs rewarding you so much for power gaming! The whole of D&D after 1977 is at once enlightening and baffling. Like why wouldn't you always play an elven magic-user/thief in 2e, or an elven fighter/magic-user in 1e? It just seems correct.
Yuuup. Or things like "balancing" magic users by making them weak at low levels and overpowered at high levels. That's just unbalanced in different ways at different times. Or making demi-humans flatly better at low levels, that virtually everyone plays, and then bad at high levels which a small fraction of players actually play at. That's the same "unbalanced in different ways at different times" issue, except that 80%+ of the players only experience one of them.

I think it's Shadowdark to compare with that has brought it all into focus for me. That game took B/X, threw out the stupid early D&D attack roll, ditched the time-consuming initiative systems, kept the dungeon exploration system, and then bolted on modern d20 fantasy to fill the holes left by eliminating all the overwrought or cumbersome designs. It's not perfect, but it lets you see the early game through a different lens.
There are a few really good games like this in the OSR space. Willing to embrace newer and older ideas and integrate them without being too beholden to other mandates or priorities.
 

Because you don't actually understand what was wrong with the original products to begin with. Al-Qadim is the closest to being alright, but even it has some serious stumbles. There is nothing wrong--nothing inherently "problematic"--about writing a setting that is inspired by non-European cultures, mythologies, or histories. The guys who made Avatar: the Last Airbender, which is very clearly and intentionally drawing on Eastern cultures and ethnicities (the Fire Nation is fascist Imperial Japan; the Earth Kingdom is like Han Dynasty China; two of the three Water Tribes are almost explicitly Inuit peoples; and the Air Nomads are Tibetan Buddhists, alongside stuff like the Sun Warriors who are clearly Mesoamerican-like), yet both of them are middle-aged white dudes.

The difference is that they did the work to make it respectful and serious. They hired legit actual experts on many different topics, including getting people who could actually write both modern and ancient Chinese so that written documents would, in fact, be written correctly; they had an on-staff martial arts expert, Sifu Kisu, to whom they dedicated an actual in-world character (Master Piandao); and they had folks actually critically analyze their work.

In the 70s and 80s--hell, even in the 90s, albeit not quite as badly--foreign cultures were used exploitatively. It didn't matter what those people actually thought or did, what their histories or beliefs or practices actually were. It just mattered that it had the veneer of exoticism, of foreign-ness. Kara-Tur is, unfortunately, rife with Orientalist tropes and content. They were not "problematic" because they examined a culture other than the authors' own; they were inconsiderate (or, more commonly, outright disrespectful) because they treated those cultures like "exotic"/silly/strange caricatures to be pantomimed for a little while and then set aside.


My frustration is that we have a self-perpetuating cycle. FR is the most popular setting, so little to nothing gets published for anything else, so FR is the most popular setting, so little to nothing gets published for anything else, so...

D&D fans pride themselves, almost to the point of hubris, on the fact that D&D is unlike video games or even most board games, by being allegedly open to the entire panoply of human imagination. Anything you can possibly conceive! But instead we grind endlessly on the same incredibly tired repetitive concepts, with the only meaningful variation in the past 50 years being the degree to which you ascribe to cynical realpolitik or idealistic monarchism.

I want these other things to be shown off in the core books, to be actively engaged with in the DMG, to be published in core materials, because that's literally how we break this self-perpetuating cycle. We get people more interested in more diverse ideas by SHOWING them how to make use of more diverse ideas. And in the doing, we make not just D&D but TTRPGs in general richer, better, fuller--because they embrace more of what it means to be human...or something other than human.
Do it yourself then. I didn't wait around for TSR or WOTC to do it for me. I did my own research and when I use these places, I alter what stereotypes I know of and research what I don't. You're just being lazy at this point. You want to complain and whine about not having other settings, but then moan and winge about the settings we do have being problamatic, claiming that you are trying to be the change you want to see...but you're not. You aren't being that change. Do the research, the reading, the notes, the hours and hours of pooling over books at libraries and such, then publish your own material or play it with your parties yourself. You can't have your cake and eat it too... The whole thing about Avatar, it was written at a time where terms like "Cultural Appropriation" and that weren't around, and even now I still hear people in some circles claiming it's an issue that two white dudes wrote it, despite the people complaining not understanding the amount of research they did. Also their water tribe, yeah...while there were people that were happy with the representation, there were those that were pissed off with it that were Inuit and Yukip, and they said they did nothing but profit off the very basic stereotypes and knowledge of their cultures...so that's not really a good argument for your statement here...

The "Medieval Europe" trope they have going on now in DnD for Faerun is just as riddled with stereotypes...you do realize this right. But somehow that's okay, somehow that doesn't upset you. it only upsets you because you have played it out. If you looked into actual medieval history, you would come to realize that the reason why each town has a castle or a ruling lord, is because when that ruling lord got permission from the king to build on that land, he was instructed to build a fortification that the king could use as defense, not just for grandeur. Well castles and that don't build themselves in a day, they take YEARS and man power to do it; no CATS around here to build it. So people travel out from surrounding towns to build this thing, and with that they had to build homes because sometimes these projects took not just years, but DECADES, and they aren't traveling home just to have to go right back. They built houses for the people, segregated farmlands for the entire site, built stables for the animals that both pulled wagons and livestock, had sheds built for the masons, wood carvers, metalworkers, blacksmiths, because you needed the tools repaired and such, the segregated off a section of the river for fishing and bathing, and even sectioned off an area for bathroom facilities which they rotated out once full. So in fact an entire town sprung up around this place, that's why the castle is usually in the center of town. Also, the motes, they aren't just there for defense, they were actually where the old quarry use to be. The lord would figure out where the best patch of stone was, and would build on top of it because of the stone, then mine around it and thus would end up with the defense of a moat. My point to this, it took me LITERALLY 20 minutes of research back in the day in order to figure that out, that's nothing. I didn't wait for TSR or WOTC to correct me on the medieval Europe stereotypes of pedants being dirty and lords being cruel or the center of the town just because they were rich; I went and did it myself.

What you don't seem to understand, and the rest that claim these things are "problematic" is that unfortunately, that's how the average person is introduced to cultures outside of their own. It's seen as "Exotic" in the sense that they have never witnessed the culture before, nor have they had experience with it. Exoticism is literally just an overfascination and overcuriosity of another culture outside of your own. There is nothing wrong with that and it honestly shouldn't be discouraged. If you want people to learn about a culture, and the only way they have ever been introduced is through what you consider problematic stereotype, why then discourage the exoticism they develop while trying to learn about it? Again, you can't have your cake and eat it too. Sadly, most companies understand that the only way people are going to recognize something as being from somewhere else, on average mind you, is if they use the stereotype and style the item that way. For example, If you put a portly white man in nothing but overalls and rainboots, with one strap undone and no shirt on, living in a small house out in the woods, immediately people are going to fill in the blanks by adding no teeth, hair all over, dirty clothes, and then claim he's a hillbilly from down south in Alabama. They'll even throw in the "married to his sister" bit too. Thus, the item is recognized as being form the south and therefore the item sells as "Southern" Another example is a tall, lithe black man, wearing a leather belt with furs and leathers hanging down the front and back, chest bear with a wrap around his head. He carries a spear and a shield and has a piercing through his nose made of bone. Most people are going to immediately recognize this as African and thus the item sells as "African". Companies know that these types of things are recognizable and therefore they use them because their audience doesn't want to actually take the time to learn what the culture actually is, or they are too lazy to. Another thing, stereotypes come around from things that are true to some degree. The hillbilly thing, there are people in the backwoods that DO inbreed and marry their sister in the south, but that's not the whole of the south now is it? There are tribes and places in Africa that DO make jewelry and piercings out of bone, but that's not the whole of Africa is it? Stereotypes are a grey area, to call them problematic can be problematic in and of itself because you could be disparaging one culture that actually does what the stereotype is based off of and offending them. That's a whole different topic though for a different thread at a different time.

Point is, having a couple stereotypes as a way to get the average person to identify where they are or what the setting is going to be is fine, so long as the rest of it is actual knowledge and correct information...and you are willing to contend with the people that claim everything is wrong just because you aren't of that culture. The issue comes with people saying the entire thing is problematic and therefore shouldn't be done. Do you really think a company is going to want to sit there and do the research and investigation all for people to come back and still claim they are a problem and go on the war path? No, not really. They would rather stick to what they know and not bother with the PR headache and nightmare that it seems to be now. If you aren't part of that culture, no matter how much research and investigation you do, people are still going to tell you it's problematic or cultural appropriation or some stupidness like that, and try to get you canceled or whatever. No, they aren't going to want to deal with that and instead they stick to their own, that way they don't have to deal with people like that and the nonsense they throw out. I have had it happen to me, despite putting an ungodly amount of time into research and investigation on Japanese culture. It's one of the reasons I stopped running games for anyone outside of my family now.

Do it yourself, if you really want to be the change you want to see, do your own research and make your own worlds based on these cultures, because WOTC isn't going to do it, no one else if going to do it for you. No one wants to put that much work into it only to have some group with some nonsense about them being some form of -ist, -ted, while expressing some form of -ism, all while the same people shouting about it try to tear them down to ashes over it. It's literally not worth it.
 

Snarf Zagyg

Notorious Liquefactionist
Supporter
Yuuup. Or things like "balancing" magic users by making them weak at low levels and overpowered at high levels. That's just unbalanced in different ways at different times. Or making demi-humans flatly better at low levels, that virtually everyone plays, and then bad at high levels which a small fraction of players actually play at. That's the same "unbalanced in different ways at different times" issue, except that 80%+ of the players only experience one of them.

One of the problems I have with people in the more modern OSR movement is that they try to read back intent in the old rules that often isn't there. I wrote a relatively brief (for me) piece on Gygaxian gatekeeping before.

But the basic issue, as I see it, is that there just wasn't a lot of "balance" concern in early D&D. There were basically two modes-

1. Big Power, Big Drawbacks. This is everything from "demi-humans and level limits" to "magic users at lower levels" to "Paladins and the ethos of Lawful Stupid" to the later takes on Barbarians and Drow and Cavaliers.

You want something really cool? Awesome! You also get something that truly sucks. Of course, this usually wouldn't work at most tables, because no one likes things that suck, and those would get ... elided.


2. To be really really awesome, you first must be really awesome. D&D (and especially AD&D) was chock full of bonuses for being really really good at something. From XP bonuses to chances for psionics to the ability to be a class ... the game continued to add bonuses when you were already good. Which is truly perverse from the modern point of view, but made sense from the wargaming mind set.
 

Mannahnin

Scion of Murgen (He/Him)
One of the problems I have with people in the more modern OSR movement is that they try to read back intent in the old rules that often isn't there. I wrote a relatively brief (for me) piece on Gygaxian gatekeeping before.

But the basic issue, as I see it, is that there just wasn't a lot of "balance" concern in early D&D. There were basically two modes-

1. Big Power, Big Drawbacks. This is everything from "demi-humans and level limits" to "magic users at lower levels" to "Paladins and the ethos of Lawful Stupid" to the later takes on Barbarians and Drow and Cavaliers.

You want something really cool? Awesome! You also get something that truly sucks. Of course, this usually wouldn't work at most tables, because no one likes things that suck, and those would get ... elided.


2. To be really really awesome, you first must be really awesome. D&D (and especially AD&D) was chock full of bonuses for being really really good at something. From XP bonuses to chances for psionics to the ability to be a class ... the game continued to add bonuses when you were already good. Which is truly perverse from the modern point of view, but made sense from the wargaming mind set.
Oh yes. But "Magic Users earn their future high level godlike power by toiling in the salt mines of low level suckery" argument was the or at least an official TSR rationalization back in the day. Not merely OSR retro-justification.
 
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