D&D General Let He Who Is Without Sin Cast the First Magic Missile: Why Gygax Still Matters to Me


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Exactly.

I get it, when ones preferences or desires are not part of the baseline, it sucks. The 'main line' of D&D is only going further away from what I want, and as such I'm in the same boat, and taking it upon myself to create what I want to be doing.
Something I've found handy personally, and I don't know if there are others out there who've done this, but there's been a few 'seasons' where game designer John Wick does 31 Days of Character Creation. It's exposed me to many games I've heard of but maybe never been exposed to like Pendragon, Bunnies and Burrows or Pirate Borg, to name a few.

Basically, each day, he makes a character for a game.

The requirements are: It has to be a game he likes; it has to be a game he has personally bought; and he does his best to not use the verb 'to be', such as 'the game is crunchy' for example.

 

Yes but therein lies the problem. Gygax wasn’t always above board with his statements.
Mr. Colville mentions this a couple of times in his videos. He interprets it as the difference between the open DM that encouraged players to make the game their own, and the Head Honcho of They Sue Regularly Inc., who was trying to maintain what he saw as their rightful hegemony of TTRPGs. I tend to agree with this.
 

Just as an FYI there is a Humble Bundle Gygaxian Lost Works bundle with a lot of later Gygax stuff including Marmoreal Manor, the Yggsburg stuff, his d20 Hall of Panes and Necropolis, a couple of the statless Gygaxian world builder stuff, and a PDF of Gord the Rogue. Also a bunch of other non-Gary Gygax stuff (from Luke) and it looks like a couple tribute(?) OSR things.

So no old TSR stuff or Cyborg Commandos or Lejendary Adventures or such, but a lot of d20 era and on Gygax stuff.

A really good deal for the Marmoreal and Yggsburgh stuff.
 

The Elusive Shift is excellent, but it's more about the formation and evolution of the concept of a role playing game, and its discussion in the gaming community in the 70s and early 80s.

For more on Gary and what happened to him, I recommend Game Wizards and particularly the recently-completed 14 episode podcast When We Were Wizards.

Yeah, I'm not really interested in Gygax's story. I'm interested in the hobby and that transition.

He seemed to grow more and more obsessed with his income and status and efforts to turn D&D into a licensed media property, with movies and TV shows which could finance a lavish lifestyle for himself and his family and hangers-on.* And less and less interested in writing and creating game materials, or supporting, leading, and managing the creative folks back at TSR. Who were laboring long hours for little pay under the mismanagement of the Blumes, because Gary didn't want to be bothered managing and leading. Somewhat in his defense, he was clearly also belabored and demoralized a bit by, over the years, the death of Don Kaye, the lawsuits with Dave Arneson, his internal conflicts with the Blumes, the death of his mother in 1980, and the pressures of leading TSR when he clearly didn't know how to run a company but was determined to look like an autodidact genius and Great Man.

*(As well as his personal royalties for every book he could put his name on, and his sense that he owned D&D regardless of what any contracts said, and was entitled to every dollar he could possibly get out of it, no matter what).

Yeah, I've heard this part of the story before. By itself I don't feel like it explains Gary's apparent divergence from the rest of the roleplaying community. Or, I guess, his failure to diverge along with the rest of the community. I can accept that he was burdened by a lot that went on at TSR, but even before all that, by the late 70s Gary seemed to be both really knowledgeable about roleplaying and had some really mean-spirited ideas in the rules he wrote. I think he was clearly deeply conflicted in a lot of ways, but I don't really know why he didn't follow the transition like so much of the rest of the hobby did.

By comparison, looking at things Arneson did and wrote about, even in the early or mid 70s he was going through the Elusive Shift himself. Gary didn't. Gary kind of never did in a lot of ways. That's weird.

I don't think Gygax is unique, though. Maybe it was just how they thought game rules should be designed. I think many of Zeb Cook's rules changes for 2e AD&D were aimed at curbing PC power, but they kind of come across as similarly mean-spirited. So many rules have consequences that punish the player. 2e also did weird things like make multiclassing and spellcasters both way better. I don't know.

I started with B/X or BECMI, but didn't play them long (like 5-10 sessions) before switching to 2e, and then went back to 1e and played a mix of 1e and 2e until 3e came along. But now when I go read OSE or B/X, that edition seems incredibly fair and well-wrought in ways that BECMI, 1e, and 2e don't. Like Thief still sucks, but every other edition of the game made them even worse. The more I really look at the early design of the game, they had the best design and layout in Moldvay/Cook's B/X. Elsewhere they added a lot of options in AD&D and BECMI, but then they curbed power by being mean about it. Like they have this presumption of curbing power gaming and punishing players that do it, instead of just not making designs rewarding you so much for power gaming! The whole of D&D after 1977 is at once enlightening and baffling. Like why wouldn't you always play an elven magic-user/thief in 2e, or an elven fighter/magic-user in 1e? It just seems correct.

I think it's Shadowdark to compare with that has brought it all into focus for me. That game took B/X, threw out the stupid early D&D attack roll, ditched the time-consuming initiative systems, kept the dungeon exploration system, and then bolted on modern d20 fantasy to fill the holes left by eliminating all the overwrought or cumbersome designs. It's not perfect, but it lets you see the early game through a different lens.
 

Mr. Colville mentions this a couple of times in his videos. He interprets it as the difference between the open DM that encouraged players to make the game their own, and the Head Honcho of They Sue Regularly Inc., who was trying to maintain what he saw as their rightful hegemony of TTRPGs. I tend to agree with this.
Yep, the When We Were Wizards podcast really underscored some of the different pressures and external forces working on Gygax at that time.
 

do not recall that thread,
A relevant thread, from Morrus himself, where he explicitly notes the proliferation of complaints that D&D is being "Disneyfied."

Another thread threads explicitly referencing the complaints (this time approvingly), or individual posts wherein it is complained about, sometimes pretty bitterly. (And, you'll note, the person they're talking to also brought up the "people complain as soon as anything gets published that isn't in the mold of GH/FR.")

Morrus's thread is particularly relevant, because (as he rightly pointed out in its OP), of the books published, perhaps two might, if one is feeling generous, actually qualify. And yet their presence was hailed by quite a few loud voices as utterly unacceptable intrusion of "Disneyfication" into D&D. Which was my point; it isn't that that is a common or even leading aesthetic and other things also happen. Other things are not allowed, and they get active (even vitriolic) pushback simply for not being sufficiently traditional.

how do you know who is the minority and who the majority? Maybe your taste just differs from the majority, nothing wrong with that
Because they cannot--even in principle--be more than about 30% of current D&D fans. The rest came in much, much more recently--and are of a generation that embraced significantly more variety than that of the 1970s, for a whole host of reasons, not least that most of them are between 15 and 25 years younger than that generation.
 


Again, who cares how much money other games make?
What did I say that mentioned anything about money? I'm talking about the games people actually play to any degree that it's actually plausible to find a table to join.

Same response as always: look for something that does what you want, or make it yourself. No other option is viable.
THERE ISN'T ANYTHING THAT PEOPLE ACTUALLY PLAY.

As I've said to you. At least half a dozen times now.

I would go somewhere else if there were anywhere else to go.
 

I did actually know that. The real reason I put up a tree is because Queen Victoria made it fashionable and it just wouldn't feel like Christmas without it.
Oh, certainly. Had it been unfashionable in the Victorian era, there's a chance it would have simply died out entirely, or become an American-specific tradition.

I kind of see this as a separate issue though. I too have felt the bitter sting of not being able to find enough people willing to play other games. It's tough, but I've come to terms with the simple truth that I will probably never play or run a Pendragon campaign.
Okay. What would you then do, having accepted that Pendragon is out of the question, if you were also deeply dissatisfied with the state of the games you could actually play?
 

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