Thoughts on the Failure of Licensed IP in the Hobby: The Lack of Disney-fication is a Feature, not a Bug

Snarf Zagyg

Notorious Liquefactionist
With the whole fiasco we've been dealing with recently we've had a number of people who have questioned the dominant position of D&D, and more generally, WoTC/Hasbro, within the TTRPG (hereafter, "RPG") industry. While I have previously written (and written, and written) thoughts about why D&D has this kind of privileged position within the industry, I was intrigued by the people who, on occasion, would predict that the recent brouhaha would cause some big player to swoop in and use its own IP to dominate the industry.

That, combined with the recent thread on licensed IPs you wish had been made into RPGs but hadn't, made me start thinking about the issue more closely. Why don't we see everyone playing Lord of the Rings? Marvel Super Heroes? The Fast & Furious Family? The Greater Pixar Animated Galaxy? The Rowlings-free Potterverse? Barbie's Magical Mansion? James Bond's World of Drinkin' and Killin'?

I think that there is a reason that we don't see the dominance of established IP brands within the RPG community. And it's worth looking at why we don't see them. Which .... wait for it ... wait for it ... wait for it ... requires a little history! YES!

1. The Early History of RPGs
In the beginning, there was D&D. Now, I don't think it's particularly helpful to unpack how influential Tolkien was on D&D- whether you think it was a little, or a lot, it was certainly part of it. But D&D was not a Tolkien simulator (something I will address in more detail later).

After D&D, we began to see other games take form. Boot Hill. Tunnels & Trolls. Metamorphosis Alpha. Superhero: 2044. Gamma World. RuneQuest. Traveller. Notably, the vast majority of games were inspired by genre and genre tropes (Fantasy, Space Opera, Post Apocalypse, Super Heroes, Westerns, etc.) but relatively few were directly based on a sole specific work of intellectual property. The 1970s were, for the most part, devoid of a lot a lot of licensed material for RPGs. That doesn't mean that there weren't any RPGs- for example, one of the very first RPGs was Bunnies & Burrows (what is it with alliteration in RPGs?), released in 1976, and heavily inspired by Watership Down.

There are different ways to look at this, but the simplest way is that the RPG market in the 1970s was very much a hobbyist market, and that IP and licensing just wasn't as developed as we expect it today. There was a lot of "borrowing" of IP that often went unchecked or was incorporated into games, and occasionally would result in some action (such as when the original Deities & Demigods had sections for the mythos of Moorcock and H.P Lovecraft, but were withdrawn because while TSR had received permission for that, Chaosium had entered into licensing agreements for same).

Over time, of course, more licensed properties began to appear in the RPG world. Notable appearances were Star Trek in 1978 (not the later, more famous one, in 1982), Call of Cthulhu in 1981, MERP (Middle Earth Role Playing) in 1982, Marvel Super Heroes in 1984, DC Heroes in 1985, and Star Wars in 1987. Of course, this is just the tip of the iceberg- the 1980s saw an explosion of licensed RPGs, when everything from Ghostbusters to James Bond to Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles to Doctor Who to Conan saw their own RPGs released.

...and yet, none of them took over the market. None of them became dominant forces in the way that D&D and its various clones have. Looking through the games and thinking back through the history, I am sure that people will note one game that is both fondly remembered from that time and still quite prevalent today (Call of Cthulhu) which we will return to later. But, for the most part, the licensed IP is mostly forgotten, even if fondly remembered (RIP, Marvel FASERIP). Why? In the same community that can argue endlessly about the best Star Trek captain, or how true to canon Rings of Power is, or whether Order 66 was justified by Jedi child abuse ... how is it that that these games that would let you play in these worlds have remained in the minority?


2. The Gandalf Problem
One of the interesting (for various definitions of "interesting") debates in early D&D was how to stat up Gandalf. See, for example, the article in Dragon #5- Gandalf Was Only A Fifth Level Magic-User. This was just another salvo in the continuing debate about Gandalf specifically, and fictional character generally- how do you translate the awesome character you read about into D&D rules? Or, put another way, why does every Legolas you make seem lame, Chad?

At a very fundamental level, these debates within D&D were simply a small version of the issue that we would later see in game design - the tension between RPGs as a game and RPGs as an emergent story. Without getting too far sidetracked, it's been long recognized that games are required to follow rules- in addition, most RPGs have concerns about things like "balance," or "sharing the spotlight," or "niche protection," or "advancement" (or just some type of reward loop). Finally, and most importantly, most RPGs have some degree of player agency within the game.

This is in contrast to fiction- while there is certainly a desire for internal consistency in fiction, there are no hard-and-fast mechanical rules. Everything is in service to the needs of the author (using the term loosely- the director, the creative force behind the work). How powerful is Gandalf? As powerful as he needs to be. How did he survive the fall? Because um ... um mumbo jumbo reward for sacrifice mumbo jumbo. And so on. On the other hand, as soon as you tie a particular character down to any ruleset, even flexible rulesets that play to narrative concerns, you immediately lose the flexibility of a completely fictional character that isn't in a game.

And that's one of the major issues with licensed properties. At their best, they let you play in a world you love- the world of Star Trek, or Star Wars, or Marvel. But to the extent you are comparing yourself to the fiction that the IP is based on, it will always fall short. The needs of the game ensure that you will not be Captain Kirk, you cannot faithfully re-created the heroes' journey of Luke Skywalker, and that it will be kinda sorta lame to be Hawkeye when your friend is Thor.

....okay, that last example is true to the IP. But you get the point. RPGs, which are great for allowing you to play within worlds, are generally bad at recreating specific characters from previously-known IP.


3. The Cthulhu Counter
If you've read this far, you're probably already thinking about Cthulhu. Honestly, we're all thinking about Cthulhu, all the time, allowing the words to seep into our conscious thoughts every minute of every day until the very thought becomes unbearable and Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn ....

HA! Of course you haven't read this far. You already made a comment about how I didn't consider Cthulhu. Arguably, Chaosium's Cthulhu, both the first game (a revelation in 1981) continuing on through the popular 7th Edition, is the example that proves the rule. It is the IP-based RPG that keeps on truckin', and remains incredibly popular to this day.

But why did I write that it is the exception that proves the rule? So here's the thing- first, unlike more mainstream IPs like Marvel, Star Wars, and Star Trek, Cthulhu and the Lovecraftian universe wasn't very character driven. It was always more of a genre- cosmic horror. While there were protagonists in the various short stories ... spoiler ... they don't really get repeat performances. Importantly (perhaps for purposed of the ongoing OGL debacle) the prominence of Lovecraft skyrocketed in the 70s and later first as August Derleth (and Arkham House) licensed anything and everything they could, and then later as it was realized that a good deal of Lovecraft's work was in the public domain. If you ever want to read something that is both comical and also puts the recent contretemps regarding Hasbro's statements to shame, I suggest reading this one from Chaosium. :)

Due to this confluence of events and impeccable timing, CoC became more than a mere vessel for IP, but instead became a standard-bearer for horror within RPGs.


4. Commercial Considerations
Another issue that came up during the recent OGL fiasco was the idea that a licensing fee from WoTC was terrible, as the margins for many 3PPs are already so low. And from there, most people will recognize another issue with licensed IPs. Yes, it is true that the best way to make a small fortune in RPGs is to start with a large fortune- but the already slim margins are even more difficult if you have to pay the rights holder for the use of their intellectual property. For that reason, you often see the rights bounce around.

You can see this licensing issue with some of the big properties- Star Wars went from WEG to WoTC to FFG (now to Edge).
Star Trek has gone from Heritage Models to FASA to Last Unicorn to Decipher to Modiphus .... and I know I'm missing some.

And so on. Yes, D&D (5e) has managed to make a decent amount of money. But the market is relatively small potatoes for a lot of the these companies ... certainly in terms of investing the money to enter the market themselves. So we see perioding licensing of their IP, sometimes with decent games as a result (again, RIP FASERIP). Fundamentally, though, there is always the same problem with the licensed IP such as this - rights-holders will not license their IP indefinitely, and they will demand money, and there is always the possibility that even if it is successful it might get "yanked back."


5. Conclusion
This hobby is a strange one; D&D might be a big fish (or even a Blue Whale) in terms of the RPG market, but it's a minnow when it comes to branded IP. For various reasons, both historical and commercial, major properties such as Star Wars, Star Trek, and the DC/Marvel universes have always been a present, but small, part of the market. In addition, the nature of RPGs have always meant that the things that are most valuable about these commercial properties - the characters - often make them ill-suited for RPGs. Whether the converse is true, and D&D is ill-suited for expansion into other media, in an open question that we will likely see resolved with the release of the new movie and upcoming TV shows.
 

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Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
In addition, the nature of RPGs have always meant that the things that are most valuable about these commercial properties - the characters - often make them ill-suited for RPGs.

So, I wonder at this a little bit. Especially with respect to a one property in particular - Star Trek.

Back in the beginning, there was one captain - Kirk. He was the only one we saw enough of, and in playing an early Trek RPG, everything would be a Kirk knock-off of, or direct contrast to, Kirk. And that was it until 1987, when there was Kirk and Picard. And now there's Kirk, Picard, Sisko, Janeway, Archer, several Disco Captains, Freeman and Pike.

And through all those, the entire canon has broadened out. It is hard to claim now that it is about being the captain, because now we think of it as a horde of captains. The implication is that you can be your captain, which is altogether better for the idea of a role-playing game. The limitation of the characters should be somewhat lessened for a property that's had hundreds and hundreds of hours of media about many very different characters.

But, Trek still hasn't taken off as a major RPG player.

Because, there's also genre to consider. Any licensed property has its own very tight genre considerations. Leverage is a great little system for playing a very specific kind of game. Playing that one specific game is fun, sure, but as a constant diet, it can get kind of boring. I could certainly run a session of it. A short arc. Maybe even a "season". But do it over and over, for years? Probably not so much fun.

This brings us back around to the Cheesecake Factory metaphor. A successful media property has focus, and therefore can't really be the Cheesecake Factory it needs to be in order to take a dominant position in the market.
 

These two, I think are very pertinent when taken together. Chaosium has consistently had the Cthulhu license forever. Other companies have put out Cthulhu this and Cthulhu that, but Chaosium has always had Call of Cthulhu.

By contrast, how many Star Wars games from how many different companies have we had now?

3. The Cthulhu Counter
If you've read this far, you're probably already thinking about Cthulhu. Honestly, we're all thinking about Cthulhu, all the time, allowing the words to seep into our conscious thoughts every minute of every day until the very thought becomes unbearable and Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn ....

HA! Of course you haven't read this far. You already made a comment about how I didn't consider Cthulhu. Arguably, Chaosium's Cthulhu, both the first game (a revelation in 1981) continuing on through the popular 7th Edition, is the example that proves the rule. It is the IP-based RPG that keeps on truckin', and remains incredibly popular to this day.

But why did I write that it is the exception that proves the rule? So here's the thing- first, unlike more mainstream IPs like Marvel, Star Wars, and Star Trek, Cthulhu and the Lovecraftian universe wasn't very character driven. It was always more of a genre- cosmic horror. While there were protagonists in the various short stories ... spoiler ... they don't really get repeat performances. Importantly (perhaps for purposed of the ongoing OGL debacle) the prominence of Lovecraft skyrocketed in the 70s and later first as August Derleth (and Arkham House) licensed anything and everything they could, and then later as it was realized that a good deal of Lovecraft's work was in the public domain. If you ever want to read something that is both comical and also puts the recent contretemps regarding Hasbro's statements to shame, I suggest reading this one from Chaosium. :)

Due to this confluence of events and impeccable timing, CoC became more than a mere vessel for IP, but instead became a standard-bearer for horror within RPGs.


4. Commercial Considerations
Another issue that came up during the recent OGL fiasco was the idea that a licensing fee from WoTC was terrible, as the margins for many 3PPs are already so low. And from there, most people will recognize another issue with licensed IPs. Yes, it is true that the best way to make a small fortune in RPGs is to start with a large fortune- but the already slim margins are even more difficult if you have to pay the rights holder for the use of their intellectual property. For that reason, you often see the rights bounce around.

You can see this licensing issue with some of the big properties- Star Wars went from WEG to WoTC to FFG (now to Edge).
Star Trek has gone from Heritage Models to FASA to Last Unicorn to Decipher to Modiphus .... and I know I'm missing some.

And so on. Yes, D&D (5e) has managed to make a decent amount of money. But the market is relatively small potatoes for a lot of the these companies ... certainly in terms of investing the money to enter the market themselves. So we see perioding licensing of their IP, sometimes with decent games as a result (again, RIP FASERIP). Fundamentally, though, there is always the same problem with the licensed IP such as this - rights-holders will not license their IP indefinitely, and they will demand money, and there is always the possibility that even if it is successful it might get "yanked back."
 

billd91

Not your screen monkey (he/him)
These two, I think are very pertinent when taken together. Chaosium has consistently had the Cthulhu license forever. Other companies have put out Cthulhu this and Cthulhu that, but Chaosium has always had Call of Cthulhu.

By contrast, how many Star Wars games from how many different companies have we had now?
Oh, yeah, there's a big difference between the IP gatekeepers over the diffuse Cthulhu Mythos (Chaosium has agreements with a bunch of different authors or their estates) and an IP controlled by a single corporate owner looking to keep it well monitized. It means that Chaosium has managed to afford or perform sufficient upkeep for 40 years now while multiple companies have chosen to drop Star Wars/Star Trek license renewal to avoid the expense or corporate interference (which Paramount has been notorious for with respect to Star Trek RPGs).
 

Incidents are easy, Plot is hard.

I've run a couple of Discworld campaigns, as playtests for the two editions of the SJ Games Discworld RPG. Both have needed plots resembling those of Pratchett stories to feel right, and getting those to work without railroading the players was not easy.

In contrast, my usual long-form RPG plots emerge gradually from a set of incidents or separate missions. Those missions are structured more like short stories than novels, and the players come to understand the setting and what needs changing about it rather slowly. They're enjoying the activities along the way, which occupy them for the first year or two as they develop their characters.

Novels, films, and TV series have their own forms of story. RPGs are a bit different.
 

payn

Legend
Incidents are easy, Plot is hard.

I've run a couple of Discworld campaigns, as playtests for the two editions of the SJ Games Discworld RPG. Both have needed plots resembling those of Pratchett stories to feel right, and getting those to work without railroading the players was not easy.

In contrast, my usual long-form RPG plots emerge gradually from a set of incidents or separate missions. Those missions are structured more like short stories than novels, and the players come to understand the setting and what needs changing about it rather slowly. They're enjoying the activities along the way, which occupy them for the first year or two as they develop their characters.

Novels, films, and TV series have their own forms of story. RPGs are a bit different.
This. I think a lot of folks went IP hunting and got disappointed. They want to reenact Star Wars, but Luke is not a level 1 character (despite sounding like one most of the time). Also, Luke could die to a random Ewok attack which feels wrong. D&D was a fantasy emulator, it took a lot, but didn't cleave too close to any established stories. Earlier it was also more like a board game, than a story game. Post Hickman changed that up a bit, but you still had random elements that are hard to imagine exactly as your favorite film and/or stories. Also, a lot of folks (myself included) are not as good adventure writers as they think they are.

I think the narrative driven gamers that want to emulate their favorite IPs are doing so with new game styles and systems. That type of play is still in its infancy, but its growing all the time. If D&D is going digital, and thus staying close to 5E over time, I think thats going to do wonders for the industry. Finally, D&D can just be D&D, instead of having to be a little bit of everything. RPGs are growing up and learning how to be more what folks want them to be.
 

Parmandur

Book-Friend
I think you are right that Call of Cthulu is a success for capturing the horror genre more than a license. Indeed, I would go a step further, and suggest that more people know Lovecraftian fiction because of Call of Cthulu, than get into Call of Cthulu because of the literature.

I just got the big CoC anniversary box set last year with a bunch of 80's modules, and ot having gotten into the game before...I was surprised by how much non-Lovecradt horror gets covered! I have star blocks for all the classic Universal Movie Monsters, and I see references to a whole bunch of non-Muthos horror literature and film...even Dark Shadows, of all things. Really is the Horror equivalent of D&D' genre omnibus approach.
 

Undrave

Hero
Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles
Isn't it weird that, if I'm not mistaken, we've not seen another TMNT game since the Palladium one?
n addition, the nature of RPGs have always meant that the things that are most valuable about these commercial properties - the characters - often make them ill-suited for RPGs.
That's true, and Hollywood, as shown by the way a lot of properties are stumbling around that concept, seems incapable of even capitalizing on the Non-Characters elements of their setting. I think Ghostbusters, for exemple, could have been a much more profitable franchise if they hadn't felt the need to stick to the original 4 and had instead followed the obvious way Venkman and the other could make their business flourish: FRANCHISING. We should already be neck deep into a Ghostbusters cinematic universe the same way the Law & Order, CSI, etc went about populating the TV screens. Where's 'Ghostbusters: New Orleans', 'Ghostbusters: Chicago', 'Ghostbusters: London', 'Ghostbusters: Cincinnati', 'Ghostbusters: South-West Minnesota', etc etc. I think it could have worked.

Similarly, I think franchise known for their absurd number of characters should have more potential... Star Wars during the Clone Wars era felt a lot of fun to play in, Star Trek has tons of characters now, GI-Joe, Transformers, large tokusatsu franchises (Ultraman's New Generaton Era is reaching 10 years of consecutive show in a nearly 60 years old franchise, Kamen Rider is reaching 23 consecutive show out of 52 yars, and Super Sentai is 4 eps from its 47th team!), superhero comics, others I'm not thinking of.

But I think the final issue is: Are the fans of that franchise also fans of RPG and vice-versa. The venn diagram might not be good enough and the buy in might be difficult on both end. You need to convince RPG players who might not be full on fans of, say, Transformers, to give a shot at playing in that sandbox, while also convincing Transformers to learn a complicated looking game.

As much as I'd love to get the Power Rangers RPG and homebrew my own team, am I gonna get 5 friends to play with me who wouldn't care about the setting or appreciate/get the traditional 'narrative loop' of such a story? I don't even know if the game actually captures that particular loop I'm looking for because I don't want to spend on a book that will just collect dust...
So, I wonder at this a little bit. Especially with respect to a one property in particular - Star Trek.

Back in the beginning, there was one captain - Kirk. He was the only one we saw enough of, and in playing an early Trek RPG, everything would be a Kirk knock-off of, or direct contrast to, Kirk. And that was it until 1987, when there was Kirk and Picard. And now there's Kirk, Picard, Sisko, Janeway, Archer, several Disco Captains, Freeman and Pike.

And through all those, the entire canon has broadened out. It is hard to claim now that it is about being the captain, because now we think of it as a horde of captains. The implication is that you can be your captain, which is altogether better for the idea of a role-playing game. The limitation of the characters should be somewhat lessened for a property that's had hundreds and hundreds of hours of media about many very different characters.

But, Trek still hasn't taken off as a major RPG player.

Because, there's also genre to consider. Any licensed property has its own very tight genre considerations. Leverage is a great little system for playing a very specific kind of game. Playing that one specific game is fun, sure, but as a constant diet, it can get kind of boring. I could certainly run a session of it. A short arc. Maybe even a "season". But do it over and over, for years? Probably not so much fun.

This brings us back around to the Cheesecake Factory metaphor. A successful media property has focus, and therefore can't really be the Cheesecake Factory it needs to be in order to take a dominant position in the market.
I always find that modern and futuristic RPG run into the same issues: Society itself.

In a modern developped setting you're always running into laws, regulations, rules, and it's even worse if you and the other players are part of a strict command chain. It's one thing for the Rogue or Bard to get up to shenanigans and the party's Paladin chews them out for it, it's another when it's the Ship's Engineer who gets caught by his superior officer doing something against the rules of Starfleet gets sent to the brig by another player.

And it's a lot easier to fake being someone else when there is no formal identification needed to go anywhere. Way easy to get into a town by putting some rags on, asking the Druid to turn into a goat and introducing myself as Johan the Goat Herder on the way back home with a new goat I got as a gift from my brother-in-law Balthazar.
 
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MGibster

Legend
But, Trek still hasn't taken off as a major RPG player.
In my experience, one of the most difficult things about running a Star Trek game was getting the players to treat it like a Star Trek game. i.e. Just acting like their characters were Starfleet officers rather than doing some of the things PCs are famous for doing. One thing every Trek game I've played lacked is the violence treadmill. D&D revolves around a never ending cycle of fighting, killing, looting in order to become more powerful so your character can continue fighting, killing, and looting stronger foes in a cycle that ends when the campaign is over or the character is dead. The violence treadmill just doesn't work very well for Trek.

Maybe the violence and rewards treadmill is one of the things that makes D&D so successful?
 

Yora

Legend
The main thing that always made me doubt that Star Trek could even be viable as an RPG is that all works revolve primarily around Starfleet officers, and as such PCs wouldn't decide their actions as equals, but instead have one player have the final say on everything with everyone else expected to do it without much resistence.

That's what makes Star Wars much more playable, and probably hugely more popular for RPGs.Scoundrels take orders only from one person ("Me!") and everything has to be decided by bargaining with other PCs, and even when the party consists of Rebel fighters, hierarchy is more a suggestion than a hard rule that is being enforced.
 

aramis erak

Legend
The main thing that always made me doubt that Star Trek could even be viable as an RPG is that all works revolve primarily around Starfleet officers, and as such PCs wouldn't decide their actions as equals, but instead have one player have the final say on everything with everyone else expected to do it without much resistence.
That's not how they usually wind up playing out. It's a theorycrafting issue that seldom happens in actual play by Star Trek fans. Especially TNG, DS9, or Voyager fans - where staff meetings are collaborative, and the captain's usually rubberstamping a group concensus.

The few times it's not, it's generally good drama to come out of it.

I've run a lot of Trek; I've run more Star Wars. (Over the last 40 years, about 4 years worth of Trek across FASA/Decipher/Modiphius; another 4 years worth of TFG Prime Directive; I've run 3 years worth of WEG 1E SW and 3 of WEG 2e, and about 8 years worth of FFG - several points running two campaigns at once.) I've seen the rank issue as often in Star Wars as in Star Trek - as about 1/2 of my SW games were active duty Rebellion based. Not Very often. Not zero, either.
 

Staffan

Legend
That's what makes Star Wars much more playable, and probably hugely more popular for RPGs.Scoundrels take orders only from one person ("Me!") and everything has to be decided by bargaining with other PCs, and even when the party consists of Rebel fighters, hierarchy is more a suggestion than a hard rule that is being enforced.
The Age of Rebellion game has some notes on this and it basically boils down to "Yes, the Rebel Alliance is a military hierarchy, but the PCs form a special ops team that are usually given a task and then have wide latitude in how to carry that task out." And if you don't care for playing rebel scum, well, there's always the regular scum in Edge of the Empire and jedi scum in Force & Destiny.

Generally speaking, Star Wars has always worked fairly well as a RPG setting, because there's a sense of scale to it that leaves a lot of room for the PCs. Even if the movies are The Skywalker Saga, it's a big galaxy out there, and it's a galaxy that's well suited for adventuring. Many licensed settings have a stronger focus on the exploits of a particular person or group, with the rest of the setting only being background detail, but Star Wars has always seemed like a very lived-in universe where there's a lot of stuff going on off-screen.

As for the business side of things, licenses are usually temporary things. RPGs in general are pretty front-loaded, and this applies even more to licensed ones. Once you've sold the core book and the low-hanging supplement fruit, you're probably not making as much money off the license as you did, but the licensor probably wants just as much money for renewing the license as they did for the original period, but for the publisher that probably doesn't make as much economic sense, and so the license easily gets cancelled. A long-running license like Chaosium's with Call of Cthulhu is very much the exception.
 

Aldarc

Legend
@Snarf Zagyg's point #4 is a much larger issue than I think gets credit. Publishers and designers often have a limited amount of time to gain any traction with their "IP the TTRPG" because their rights to make material for that IP will likely come and go.

This brings us back around to the Cheesecake Factory metaphor. A successful media property has focus, and therefore can't really be the Cheesecake Factory it needs to be in order to take a dominant position in the market.
YOMV, but it seems as if Star Wars is as much of a Cheesecake Factory in the scope of its focus as D&D. D&D's focus of its fantasy is great for playing D&D-style fantasy, but I have found that it resists the ability to play fantasy outside of that scope, which is far more than people think. 🤷‍♂️
 

aco175

Legend
I think there is also a circular problem for small publishers. A little fish may want to write books and adventures for non-D&D lines, but they feel they need to make D&D to make money. Then everyone sees all this stuff for D&D so they play that. There may also be enough variants within D&D to keep people interested. How many people on these boards were always asking for D&D Dark Sun or Planescape, Spelljammer, or even Mystera. All these are slightly different, but you can still find people to play- which is another circular problem.

Barbie's Magical Mansion? James Bond's World of Drinkin' and Killin'?
Are these two games compatible? Asking for a friend.
 

I think there is also a circular problem for small publishers. A little fish may want to write books and adventures for non-D&D lines, but they feel they need to make D&D to make money. Then everyone sees all this stuff for D&D so they play that. There may also be enough variants within D&D to keep people interested. How many people on these boards were always asking for D&D Dark Sun or Planescape, Spelljammer, or even Mystera. All these are slightly different, but you can still find people to play- which is another circular problem.
'Network effects' I think is the business term.
 

Alzrius

The EN World kitten
But why did I write that it is the exception that proves the rule? So here's the thing- first, unlike more mainstream IPs like Marvel, Star Wars, and Star Trek, Cthulhu and the Lovecraftian universe wasn't very character driven. It was always more of a genre- cosmic horror. :)
Leaving aside genre elements for a moment, I think that from a standpoint of...I don't want to say "branding" or "intellectual property," because those are more marketing/legal concerns than anything else; perhaps "recognition" is the better term...the Cthulhu Mythos has something that a lot of other series (for lack of a better term) lack, which is an iconic antagonist (who leads a suite of antagonists) that aren't bound up to any particular narrative, aren't tied to any particular hero, and have no canonical defeat.

For a lot of licensed properties, the stories involved are what drives them, and those stories are often intrinsically tied to the characters. To that end, we know that a lot of PCs don't like to be tied down to the idea of playing an established character; in my experience, most see it as a straitjacket that infringes on how they'd prefer to play (even as they ruthlessly exploit those characters' abilities). But villains are characters that the heroes love to struggle against, often even when they should be rightfully scared of them. Put Darth Vader in your Star Wars game and, if the players aren't properly intimidated, they'll start dreaming up all sorts of creative ways to manipulate the game rules in order to bump him off. Everyone wants that badge of honor on their character sheet.

Naturally, that can be a bit of a problem for the GM, since it disrupts the established narrative to the point of turning the setting into a mess, leaving them floundering to put things back together and figure out what happens next. For many GMs, this is the reason to keep the PCs far away from the rebellion, either in terms of setting them on the Outer Rim, in the past or future, etc.

Cthulhu doesn't have that problem. Not only is there no established narrative beyond a few short stories, but the villain isn't anyone they can ever truly fight (at least, not fight and win; Cthulhu eats 1d4 investigators each turn). There's minions aplenty to foil, but you can't kill Cthulhu, and there's no heroic narrative that says otherwise. As such, Cthulhu becomes an enduring symbol for the entire franchise, a Sauron with no One Ring to tear him down. It allows the limits of an established IP to be transcended, because there's no hard-and-fast narrative to set the framework.

Of course, that works against establishing such an IP in terms of "Disneyfication" as well. There've been plenty of Cthulhu-themed movies and TV series, but none that have truly put the Mythos front-and-center while also becoming an enduring staple of popular culture (i.e. to the point of being a media universe in-and-of themselves). Though it would have been interesting if Universal's Monster Universe (or whatever it was going to be called) could have pulled this off.

All of which goes back to the point in the OP, which is that what makes an engaging bit of media fiction, and particularly an entire media universe, doesn't necessarily lend itself to a very good tabletop role-playing game.
 
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payn

Legend
In my experience, one of the most difficult things about running a Star Trek game was getting the players to treat it like a Star Trek game. i.e. Just acting like their characters were Starfleet officers rather than doing some of the things PCs are famous for doing. One thing every Trek game I've played lacked is the violence treadmill. D&D revolves around a never ending cycle of fighting, killing, looting in order to become more powerful so your character can continue fighting, killing, and looting stronger foes in a cycle that ends when the campaign is over or the character is dead. The violence treadmill just doesn't work very well for Trek.

Maybe the violence and rewards treadmill is one of the things that makes D&D so successful?
The D&D Murderhobo template is hard to get past. Just the other day I had a talk with a friend about Blade Runner the RPG. He was complaining about how the hovercars and flak jackets dont provide enough defense for the numerous gun fights you will be getting into. I asked him why he thought that was important to play? "Thats RPG" was the reply. He expects to go around ventilating skin jobs and getting promotions and govt checks to buy stuff for his gun and car. Nothing in the film promotes this. In fact, Dekkard gets his ass kicked in nearly every fight and gets by on luck. The mechanics are actually designed to push and pull you between these things to aim for an experience like the one Dekkard has. Folks are totally blind to it and will start review bombing because the game doesnt murderhobo enough. 🤷‍♂️
 

Jer

Legend
Supporter
The D&D Murderhobo template is hard to get past. Just the other day I had a talk with a friend about Blade Runner the RPG. He was complaining about how the hovercars and flak jackets dont provide enough defense for the numerous gun fights you will be getting into. I asked him why he thought that was important to play? "Thats RPG" was the reply.

Yup. Player expectations are a big deal.

I actually think that's why D&D does so well while other games only have their niche success. D&D is versatile in how you play it but the core game was originally built around beating up monsters and taking their stuff. I can run a table with someone who really gets into their character, someone who is focused on the narrative, one person who is just interested in min-maxing the heck out of their choices, and someone who just wants to blow off steam by beating up bad guys and taking their stuff and otherwise isn't all that interested but the game works anyway.

Trying to get a group that diverse to play a more tactical game or a narrative game or an investigative game is hard. Some will be along for the ride for each of those choices, but some will jump off for each of those choices. D&D threads that needle in a way no other game I've run does. It may not be the first choice for any one of those players, but it's a game they can all make work.
 

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