Unpopular opinions go here

[Thomas Shey]

As I said before, if you don't like your PC, make a new one. I won't stop you. Who's imposing something on other people here?

Will you take it as a given that I'm not lying when I saw plenty of people who treated doing that as a major moral failing at one time, or not? Are they required to be in this thread for me to comment about it?

 

[Thomas Shey]

Googling around, I came upon this:

"Not only do Starfleet's operational similarities point to them being a military organization, but the entire way they are built displays it. They use military ranks such as Captain, Vice Admiral, and Lieutenant, and follow military styled regulations."

They look like that because they can act as a military organization at need, but again, take a look at what's actually going on in most Trek episodes: scientific expeditions, diplomatic missions, rescue operations, resupply missions.

Once you have an organization that is ever going to operate in a military or quasi-military fashion, its going to be structured organizationally so that works, even if that's only what they do 10% of the time or less.

 

[overgeeked]

Will you take it as a given that I'm not lying when I saw plenty of people who treated doing that as a major moral failing at one time, or not? Are they required to be in this thread for me to comment about it?

A lot of old-school referees enforce that. If you can just chuck a character or set of stats you don’t like on a whim, why bother rolling. You’ll just cycle through until you get awesome stats and play that character.

 

[Thomas Shey]

A lot of old-school referees enforce that. If you can just chuck a character or set of stats you don’t like on a whim, why bother rolling. You’ll just cycle through until you get awesome stats and play that character.

Which is why the "swordbush" thing often ended happening, if less bluntly. At least in the OD&D days, it was going to be hard to prevent someone from getting a character they didn't like killed, as it was going to be indistinguishable from poor tactics.

Which didn't mean after a couple repeats a GM couldn't boot you, but that's the point; these were GMs were so insistent that you were going to fit their ethos of "play what you rolled" that they couldn't tolerate anyone who didn't, and considered them tantamount to cheaters.

 

[overgeeked]

Which is why the "swordbush" thing often ended happening, if less bluntly. At least in the OD&D days, it was going to be hard to prevent someone from getting a character they didn't like killed, as it was going to be indistinguishable from poor tactics.

Which didn't mean after a couple repeats a GM couldn't boot you, but that's the point; these were GMs were so insistent that you were going to fit their ethos of "play what you rolled" that they couldn't tolerate anyone who didn't, and considered them tantamount to cheaters.

Yes. I am agreeing with you. This is a thing that happened. Some referees did that. I’ve done it myself.

 

[Tony Vargas]

That theres a difference between the interactivity of roleplay and interactivity of a game; this does not mean they cannot occur simultaneously or that its a zero sum between the two.

social mechanics always, always, always fail. You can't gamify talking without breaking the ability of roleplay to leverage it for something interesting.

So it's not that you must pause your game to Roleplay, it's that playing a game can never be roleplaying, in itself, it's just something you can do while roleplaying, so long as the game only extends to the combat and exploration pillars, since attempting to play a game in the social pillar can't work?

 

[Emberashh]

So it's not that you must pause your game to Roleplay, it's that playing a game can never be roleplaying, in itself, it's just something you can do while roleplaying, so long as the game only extends to the combat and exploration pillars, since attempting to play a game in the social pillar can't work?

Idk if its a language barrier or what but you are not getting what Im saying I can't be bothered to repeat myself when I don't know what language is going to get through to you.

I very much can't simplify what Im saying any further or say it differently. What you're getting is not what I said and all I can tell you is to just keep rereading what Ive already told you.

 

[Gradine]

Hence, why social mechanics always, always, always fail.

*citation missing

 

[Tony Vargas]

Idk if its a language barrier or what but you are not getting what Im saying I can't be bothered to repeat myself when I don't know what language is going to get through to you.

I don't think, at this point, it's a problem of what you're saying. It may be the way I'm summing up my understanding that's the problem.

Which part of "playing a game can never be roleplaying, in itself, it's just something you can do while roleplaying," contradicts what you've said?"

Likewise how are you not saying "attempting to play a game in the social pillar can't work?"

You've said:

social mechanics always, always, always fail.

and

without mechanics, you're not actually creating a game.

How can that not imply that no game can cover the social pillar? If it uses mechanics, it will fails at social. If it doesn't it's not a game.

 

[Gradine]

I am about to nerd out here at a level that I can only hope causes Snarf to say, "Damn, son. You really need to tone it down."

As far as I can tell, the idea of Starfleet being anything other than a military organization originated after the original series stopped production. In the original series, Kirk refers to himself as a soldier, there's an episode literally called "Court Martial," there's the rank system and organization you point out, and most importantly it's Starfleet who prosecutes wars on behalf of the Federation. Nobody watching "Errand of Mercy," "Arena," or "Balance of Terror" in the 1960s ever thought Starfleet was anything other than a military organization.

Despite the disappointing box office return of Star Trek the Motion Picture, Paramount gave the greenlight to a sequel but they did not want Gene Roddenberry in charge. They didn't use Roddenberry's script which involved the crew of the Enterprise going back in time to the 1960s to foil a plot by time traveling Klingons. So they made Roddenberry a consultant so they could put him out of the way without pissing off Trekkies. Roddenberry hated the script for Wrath of Kahn beliving it to be too militaristic in tone. There is some speculation that Roddenberry was the one who leaked details of Spock's death to the public out of spite.

It wasn't until The Next Generation that the idea that Starfleet wasn't a military organization was floated. In 1991's 2nd season episode "Peak Performance," the Enterprise is assigned to a training exercise as part of Starfleet's effort to figure out how to handle the new Borg threat. From the very beginning, Picard and Riker consider it a waste of time as the captain says, "Starfleet is not a military organization, its purpose is exploration." Keep in mind that just a few episodes earlier the Enterprise got their rear end handed to them by the Borg losing several crewmembers in the process only surviving because Q interfered.

And ever since then there's been an insistance that Starfleet wasn't really a military. Nevermind the whole Dominon War arc on Deep Space 9. I remember Nichelle Nichols insited Starfleet wasn't a military organization, they were more on par with the U.S. Coast Guard. I guess she didn't know the USCG was one of the braches of the United States Armed Services same as the Army, Navy, Air Force, and Marines. The remake of Wrath of Khan has a scene where Scotty rhetorically asks Kirk if "they were a military now?" Yes! Yes you are! You've got an admiral that's about to start a war. You're a military.

I don't care if Starfleet's main job is exploration, science, and diplomacy. They're also the organization that defends the Federation and is the one that fights the wars that need to be fought. That makes them a military.

You can throw as many academic conventions and concerts on a warship you want... at the end of the day it's still a warship.