Is "GM Agency" A Thing?

[Lanefan]

That would invalidate Adventure Paths entirely, ...

Far from the worst idea I've heard this week...

 

[Reynard]

Why?

The issue of who is establishing the shared fiction is a matter of fact, not a matter of charitable perspective.

I would paraphrase this as: there is an established tradition, in RPGing, of low player agency play. It seems to have become prevalent in the mid-80s, although Lewis Pulsipher was criticising it before then (as far back as the late 70s).

In classic dungeon-crawling play, the GM establishes the setting but - at least if Gygax's advice in his PHB is being followed - it is the players who choose the situations and the stakes (within the parameters of the GM's dungeon), by first exploring, and then setting goals for subsequent expeditions. The idea that all framing, stakes and consequences are determined by the GM is a departure from what Gygax sets out in his PHB, though there are hints of it a year later in his DMG.

The same shift can be seen in the difference between text in the 1977 Traveller rulebooks and later, early 80s, editions.

This shift is also a matter of fact, and not just of charitable or uncharitable perspective. I don't think it should be forbidden to talk about it!

I don't see that there is any particular difference between the dungeon and the wider world. Why would we presume the GM setting the stage is okay in the dungeon but not in the wilderness or civilization? It seems an arbitrary and frankly ridiculous distinction. There is no difference between saying "You see an ogre in the room before you" and "You see a thieves guild working this neighborhood" as long as each is followed by "what do you do?"

Because it is the "what do you do?" that makes an RPG a distinct and (IMO) superior form of play from other game types.

 

[Lanefan]

I think the fact that he doesn't recognize that authorship in trad games is a three way relationship between the GM, the Players, and the System itself is illustrative of the divide here.

Question: can the System itself ever in fact author anything, or can it merely tell (or make strong suggestions to) the GM and-or players what to author next in their narrations?

 

[Reynard]

Question: can the System itself ever in fact author anything, or can it merely tell (or make strong suggestions to) the GM and-or players what to author next in their narrations?

Let's say, for arguments sake, that you fed all the books into a LLM AI and then asked it to give you a random encounter for the appropriate location. It does so.

Who authored it? Is the answer significantly different than if you had labred through half a dozen books and a dozen tables with random die rolls?

I think your broader answer can be found in how you answer those questions.

 

[Emberashh]

If the situation changes when the players explore it - which is pretty much the core of the "living, breathing world" - then the players lose their agency.

This is incredibly wrong. So wrong I don't actually have any nice way to elaborate so Ill let ChatGPT:

The issue with the provided response lies in the assertion that "the players lose their agency" when the situation changes as they explore a sandbox world. This statement is not necessarily accurate.

In a tabletop role-playing game (RPG) like Dungeons & Dragons (D&D), giving players the freedom to explore a sandbox world is often considered a way to enhance their agency. Agency in RPGs refers to the players' ability to make meaningful choices and have an impact on the game world. When players explore a dynamic, ever-changing world, it can actually increase their agency because their decisions and actions can shape the narrative and the world's reactions to them.

A "living, breathing world" in RPGs typically means that the world reacts and evolves in response to the players' choices, which can make the experience more immersive and engaging. It doesn't inherently diminish agency; rather, it can enhance it by making the players' decisions feel more impactful.

So, the lapse in logic in the provided response is the misunderstanding of how player agency can be positively influenced by a dynamic and responsive game world, rather than being diminished by it.

Certainly, several factors can influence how the aspects of a dynamic, living, breathing world can affect player agency:

1. Transparency and Consistency: If the world's reactions and changes are not communicated clearly to the players, it can lead to confusion and frustration. Players should understand the cause-and-effect relationships in the game world to make informed decisions.

2. Player Knowledge: Affecting agency can depend on what players know about the world. If they have access to information and lore about the world, they can make more informed choices, which enhances their agency. Conversely, withholding crucial information can limit their agency.

3. Consequences: Agency is deeply tied to the consequences of actions. When players can see that their decisions have meaningful and logical consequences within the game world, it reinforces their sense of agency. However, if consequences seem arbitrary or disconnected from their actions, agency diminishes.

4. Player Skill and Creativity: Players' agency can be influenced by their knowledge of game mechanics and their ability to think creatively. Skilled players who understand the game rules and can devise clever strategies often feel a higher degree of agency.

5. Game Master/Storyteller Skill: The skill of the Game Master (GM) or storyteller is crucial. A skilled GM can adapt the world dynamically to player choices without making it feel arbitrary. They can also provide engaging challenges and opportunities for players to exercise their agency.

6. Player Investment: Player agency often correlates with how invested they are in the story and the world. If players care deeply about their characters and the narrative, they are more likely to feel agency because their choices matter to them personally.

7. Balancing Freedom and Structure: Finding the right balance between allowing players the freedom to explore and make choices while providing a structured and coherent narrative is essential. Too much freedom without direction can lead to a lack of agency, as can too much structure without room for player creativity.

In summary, player agency in a dynamic game world is influenced by transparency, consequences, player knowledge, creativity, GM skill, player investment, and the balance between freedom and structure. When these factors align well, players are more likely to feel that their choices have a meaningful impact on the world, enhancing their agency in the game.

 

[Lanefan]

What three way? The players are flat out denied any ability to author fiction in trad games.

What?

Every time my character opens its mouth and says something (i.e. every time I-as-player speak in character) I'm authoring fiction. Every time my character - or the party as a whole - tries an action, I'm authoring fiction. Every time my character goes anywhere in the setting, I'm authoring fiction; maybe not about the setting itself but certainly about where my character is and what it's doing while there.

All they can do is react to whatever the dm authors. They cannot deal with that civil war if the dm doesn’t add a civil war to the game. They cannot as players create anything.

If they want to deal with a civil war and the DM doesn't give them one, they can always go out and try to incite one. Flip side: if the DM gives them a civil war they can always decide to ignore it.

 

[Emberashh]

Question: can the System itself ever in fact author anything, or can it merely tell (or make strong suggestions to) the GM and-or players what to author next in their narrations?

It can; see emergent mechanics and narratives.

Note though that yes, what these actually look like does overlap between the three. I don't believe there truly is a means of authorship thats exclusive to either of the three camps.

 

[Lanefan]

And thankfully not something that I've seen an adult player to do.

Naming a PC after a famous fictional character is something I've seen a few adult players do. It's all good. However...

And still not analogous to a GM running a module except perhaps in a sense that GM might be the one who decides which module to run (but not always, it is not uncommon for players to ask the GM to run a specific module to them.)

...I've never seen the bolded occur, regardless of player age.

 

[Lanefan]

You think PCs can't start a civil war? Quite, quite wrong.

Hell, I've seen them start one within their own party!

 

[Reynard]

I understand the perception that nothing happens without the GM's approval. I reject the notions that such is inherently bad or that GMs are inherently disabused to player agency.