D&D 5E [+] Ways to fix the caster / non-caster gap

[Cap'n Kobold]

The trouble with giving fighter an "ability" like the ninth level spell foresight is that you are switching from a valuable spell slot the player wants to reserve and use until they have decided what the most effective use for it will be to a daily power that will be used everyday while we still continue to hear about "the caster / non-caster gap" we every time the caster chooses to use their ninth level spell slot on something else.

The "Anticipation" or whatever the similar-to-Foresight ability will be called is not only very flexible, the idea would be that it would be one out of a list of options to choose from. These would be for the "Expanded Martial" class, one of which's man purposes would be to overcome the caster/non-caster gap.

 

[tetrasodium]

Are Hawkeye and Blackwidow and Kingpin mundane in Marvel Comics? (As in, no tech boosts, no mutant powers, no magic, no divinity, no alien blood?) They're usually treated as such by the other heroes in those universes.

How is what you are suggesting different from just descending into adding the cultivator subgenre of wuxia & xianxia to martials while demoting nonmartials to the status of mortals in those genres? In comic books you can have superman on the same team as batman* without considering him little more than some flavor of sugar daddy monetary sponsor or dead weight because the reader is a passive observer of stories about main characters rather than a participant

*or hawkeye/black widow on the same team as doctor strange & ironman

 

[tetrasodium]

The "Anticipation" or whatever the similar-to-Foresight ability will be called is not only very flexible, the idea would be that it would be one out of a list of options to choose from. These would be for the "Expanded Martial" class, one of which's man purposes would be to overcome the caster/non-caster gap.

I feel like you are dancing around the fact that you are literally talking about a ninth level spell. I even linked up the spell everywhere I used the words "ninth level" in the post you quoted.

 

[TaranTheWanderer]

I feel like you are dancing around the fact that you are literally talking about a ninth level spell. I even linked up the spell everywhere I used the words "ninth level" in the post you quoted.

If I’m following the exchange between you and @Cap'n Kobold I don’t see the issue in a conversation where we are talking about closing the gap between martials and casters.

If a fighter can do the equivalent of Time Stop, for example, it’s not stopping a wizard from also casting Time Stop. I think what is being said is the fighter has that only option from a list while the wizard still has their full list of 9th level spells to choose from for the exact situation.

 

[Cadence]

How is what you are suggesting different from just descending into adding the cultivator subgenre of wuxia & xianxia to martials while demoting nonmartials to the status of mortals in those genres?

Are they meditatively training to draw on Qi or the like or some other source like the barbarian rage that most people don't have? Or are they "just physically training"?

Are those the same thing or different? Does it depend on if you're in a faux adventure Western Europe or some parts of faux adventure East Asia?

In the MCU is there a continum of people going from you and me up to Hawkeye and the Black-Widow so that there is no stark line between them and us? (Just like there is a continuum of running ability from you and me up to Usain Bolt). It feels like there is a stark line between Muggles and Wizards, for lack of any other easily pickable phrase in my head.

In comic books you can have superman on the same team as batman* without considering him little more than some flavor of sugar daddy monetary sponsor or dead weight because the reader is a passive observer of stories about main characters rather than a participant

*or hawkeye/black widow on the same team as doctor strange & ironman

Comic characters also have lots and lots of plot armor. I have a theory that every character in comics that lives more than an issue also has either invulnerability, super senses+dodge, or super-luck (and it's that third one for those that don't obviously have the others).

 

[Micah Sweet]

Are Hawkeye and Blackwidow and Kingpin and Okoye mundane in Marvel Comics? (As in, no cybernetics, no mutant powers, no magic, no divinity, no alien blood?) They're usually treated as such by the other heroes in those universes.

More or less, sure. They're also treated as lower-tier heroes in most rankings of power (unless you're going narrative). You willing to take the good with the bad?

 

[Micah Sweet]

How is what you are suggesting different from just descending into adding the cultivator subgenre of wuxia & xianxia to martials while demoting nonmartials to the status of mortals in those genres? In comic books you can have superman on the same team as batman* without considering him little more than some flavor of sugar daddy monetary sponsor or dead weight because the reader is a passive observer of stories about main characters rather than a participant

*or hawkeye/black widow on the same team as doctor strange & ironman

Unless they specifically have different tasks in every situation or you go narrative, you really can't have Superman and Batman on the same team.

 

[Cadence]

More or less, sure. They're also treated as lower-tier heroes in most rankings of power (unless you're going narrative). You willing to take the good with the bad?

Sure, I'm not saying it gets one all the way to addressing the thread title. But it feels like it gets us closer?

Especially if most games don't get passed 10th level and/or a sizeable chunk of players want to stop before it's a team of Dr. Strange, Wanda, Thor, and Captain Marvel.

 

[Lanefan]

As someone ( @Micah Sweet ?) said earlier, my first solution would be to put back in all the risks that have been taken out of casting. Any jostling or interruption, even if it doesn't cause damage, and poof - there goes your spell along with your action for the round. Make some spells dangerous to cast, either for the caster or for those around; but don't otherwise nerf them any further. Force casters to roll to aim their ranged spells. And for gawd's sake do away with both ritual casting and at-will cantrips: make spells the limited-use high-risk high-reward option while martials are the energizer bunnies that keep going and going and...

Giving arcane casters fewer hit points and less fighting ability would help too. Playing a caster should sometimes become an exercise in survival rather than being able to stick your face into things.

And even then, don't play beyond about 12th level.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Sure, I'm not saying it gets one all the way to addressing the thread title. But it feels like it gets us closer?

Especially if most games don't get passed 10th level and/or a sizeable chunk of players want to stop before it's a team of Dr. Strange, Wanda, Thor, and Captain Marvel.

I'd be fine with Black Widow / Captain America / Black Panther levels being the practical limit before overt supernatural stuff is reached.