D&D 5E [+] Ways to fix the caster / non-caster gap

It's the guy who gets strong and gets angry. The Hulk's inspiration was Jekyl/Hyde, (and he changed at night).
The angry Hulk is very berserker-like, just turned up to supers levels of power.

It's a similar 'class fantasy.'


They seem to come up a lot. There's some heavy crossover in the fandoms.
Tbh I very rarely see them come up as actual examples, outside of your posts here and people asking whether the fighter should be on a Cap level or a Thor level.

But I’ve never had someone ask how they can play Spider-Man in D&D .
 

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Yeah, I was wondering whether Thor would show up if you asked the man on the street about 'fantasy characters' ... but, it'd be nice if Cap or Thor was a legit question to ask about D&D martials... getting up to Cap's level would be cool.
 

I wish we could easily find out if the general TTRPG community wants to play the Hulk. I suspect that most players want to play fantasy characters rather than comic characters, but I could be wrong.
The Big Dumb Muscle Warrior of the oiginal fighting man levels up to the Hulking Brute to me.
Either the Fighting Man becomes a Lord or a Hulk.

Those are 2 of the theorycrafted classes of Mansions and Minigiants.

The Brute who is raw strength, toughness, and speed who has a choosable PowerMode: Rage, Zeal, Beast Totem, Ancestral Possession, Runic Form.

The Knight who masters the weapons and skills of their culture. Swords, lances, and Diplomacy for Horse Knights. Clubs, Axes, and Religion for Eagle Knights, Spears, halbards, and Intimidation for Lion Knights.
 

I wish we could easily find out if the general TTRPG community wants to play the Hulk. I suspect that most players want to play fantasy characters rather than comic characters, but I could be wrong.

I mean, this is where D&D gets weird IMO. Which is partly why we get all these threads.

D&D Wizards have evolved into sort of a comic book character. Most fantasy spellcasters have all kinds of limits. Magic is never as versatile, repeatable, powerful, no cost, etc. as in D&D. You may get power with a terrible cost. Or narrow themes like fire master that can't also teleport, influence minds, etc. Or magic is much less powerful in general where invisibility is a huge artifact level power effect. even D&D fiction i've read and watched, magic doesn't work like the game.

D&D has turned the Wizard into a sort of Dr. Strange like comic book character at high level which sort of pushes to include a hulk or thor or whatever at high level for the martial.

So I think some people would prefer not to have Hulks but if there are going to be Dr. Stranges than yes, include classes that get to the hulks and thors at higher level.

Personally, I'd probably prefer a bit of spell casting nerfing -- especially in the versatility department -- and then some martial buffing. If you do the spell casting nerfing you may not need to get all the way to hulk.
 

The Big Dumb Muscle Warrior of the oiginal fighting man levels up to the Hulking Brute to me.
Either the Fighting Man becomes a Lord or a Hulk.

Yes, there are other ways to balance as well but modern D&D has shied away these as class features.

Temporal power -- ruling subjects, respect of the common man, etc. but these need to be tied to the stories told. Magic can't get you the true love of the princess but those types of things have to be integral to success in the game for this to have true advantage

Meta currency -- plot coupons to influence the narrative can help bridge the gap in spotlight and relevance
 

I mean, this is where D&D gets weird IMO. Which is partly why we get all these threads.

D&D Wizards have evolved into sort of a comic book character. Most fantasy spellcasters have all kinds of limits. Magic is never as versatile, repeatable, powerful, no cost, etc. as in D&D. You may get power with a terrible cost. Or narrow themes like fire master that can't also teleport, influence minds, etc. Or magic is much less powerful in general where invisibility is a huge artifact level power effect. even D&D fiction i've read and watched, magic doesn't work like the game.

D&D has turned the Wizard into a sort of Dr. Strange like comic book character at high level which sort of pushes to include a hulk or thor or whatever at high level for the martial.

So I think some people would prefer not to have Hulks but if there are going to be Dr. Stranges than yes, include classes that get to the hulks and thors at higher level.

Personally, I'd probably prefer a bit of spell casting nerfing -- especially in the versatility department -- and then some martial buffing. If you do the spell casting nerfing you may not need to get all the way to hulk.
There's a lot of modern players who, when they hear "Wizard", think Harry Potter, and are very confused by archaic things like spell slots. Most practitioners of magic in fiction don't have strictly defined limits on their spellcasting- you may notice that HP Wizards can cast pretty much all day, and while they can attempt a wide array of spells, most have a fairly small arsenal of spells they frequently cast (I compare this to the Earthdawn model of spellcasting; limited spells usable at one time, generally limitless output). Harry Dresden, another popular modern Wizard, is actually capable of ad hoc magical feats, though obviously, working out a spell in advance is preferable. His magic is roughly limited by his stamina (though this generally translates into his magic being limited by the narrative; he can cast as many spells as he likes until he can't), though he does need implements to aid his spells- a staff for fine precision work, a rod for evoking raw power.

Comic book Wizards, however, know a vast array of spells, and how many spells they can fire off can seem endless; Zatanna certainly seems able to use spell after spell if she needs to. John Constantine's spells all have price tags, but not in the immediate "I drained my mana pool" sort of way, but more when he has to deal with whatever entity he borrowed the power from (he's generally the magical equivalent of a guy who runs out of a restaurant without paying the check). Doctor Strange has such an arsenal of spells that when attempting to stat him for the old Marvel Super Heroes RPG, he has a whole page dedicated to things he's been seen doing on a regular basis!

There's lots of fiction where the limits of a Wizard's magic is ill-defined; in the Belgariad, we're told that magic drains the user's willpower and stamina, but most of the main magical characters you see are the top tier in the world- Garion himself being a child of prophecy, has so much raw power that the other Wizards would happily have him not cast spells, because he rarely thinks about the consequences- in the Mallorean, he creates an epic thunderstorm to stall a battle, and later we find out that this created freakish weather patterns all across the world!

In the Wheel of Time, the only thing that's really slowing down the Dragon Reborn is the fact that the more he taps into his power, the more insane he becomes; that's not a consequence of his magic per se, but a curse placed on his power source. Artifacts that can amplify his already ridiculous powers exist in the setting, like the sword Callandor.

Even stepping back a few decades to the Chronicles of Amber, there's a much more Vancian approach, with the character Merlin explaining how spells have to be carefully prepared in advance for later use. But quickly, various means to cheat the system are revealed, such as draining energy from dimensional sources, creating a magical computer of sorts that can tap into powers from across the multiverse, and eventually, magic rings with a similar effect, that let someone create new spells on the fly or even blast opponents with raw power.

I could go on, but people have this idea that D&D Wizards have mutated into this cartoonish level of magic use not seen in traditional fantasy, but for decades, Wizards in fantasy have long since left D&D Wizards in the dust with their quaint notion of limited spells per day.

If you wanted to more appropriately map modern spellcasters onto D&D, you'd have to make the top tier spells require long rituals, pacts with eldritch beings, or access to magical relics to be enabled, but then make the lower end spells essentially at-will or encounter powers, so people are throwing out lightning bolts and magic missiles many times per day if required.
 

There's a lot of modern players who, when they hear "Wizard", think Harry Potter, and are very confused by archaic things like spell slots. Most practitioners of magic in fiction don't have strictly defined limits on their spellcasting- you may notice that HP Wizards can cast pretty much all day, and while they can attempt a wide array of spells, most have a fairly small arsenal of spells they frequently cast (I compare this to the Earthdawn model of spellcasting; limited spells usable at one time, generally limitless output). Harry Dresden, another popular modern Wizard, is actually capable of ad hoc magical feats, though obviously, working out a spell in advance is preferable. His magic is roughly limited by his stamina (though this generally translates into his magic being limited by the narrative; he can cast as many spells as he likes until he can't), though he does need implements to aid his spells- a staff for fine precision work, a rod for evoking raw power.

Comic book Wizards, however, know a vast array of spells, and how many spells they can fire off can seem endless; Zatanna certainly seems able to use spell after spell if she needs to. John Constantine's spells all have price tags, but not in the immediate "I drained my mana pool" sort of way, but more when he has to deal with whatever entity he borrowed the power from (he's generally the magical equivalent of a guy who runs out of a restaurant without paying the check). Doctor Strange has such an arsenal of spells that when attempting to stat him for the old Marvel Super Heroes RPG, he has a whole page dedicated to things he's been seen doing on a regular basis!

There's lots of fiction where the limits of a Wizard's magic is ill-defined; in the Belgariad, we're told that magic drains the user's willpower and stamina, but most of the main magical characters you see are the top tier in the world- Garion himself being a child of prophecy, has so much raw power that the other Wizards would happily have him not cast spells, because he rarely thinks about the consequences- in the Mallorean, he creates an epic thunderstorm to stall a battle, and later we find out that this created freakish weather patterns all across the world!

In the Wheel of Time, the only thing that's really slowing down the Dragon Reborn is the fact that the more he taps into his power, the more insane he becomes; that's not a consequence of his magic per se, but a curse placed on his power source. Artifacts that can amplify his already ridiculous powers exist in the setting, like the sword Callandor.

Even stepping back a few decades to the Chronicles of Amber, there's a much more Vancian approach, with the character Merlin explaining how spells have to be carefully prepared in advance for later use. But quickly, various means to cheat the system are revealed, such as draining energy from dimensional sources, creating a magical computer of sorts that can tap into powers from across the multiverse, and eventually, magic rings with a similar effect, that let someone create new spells on the fly or even blast opponents with raw power.

I could go on, but people have this idea that D&D Wizards have mutated into this cartoonish level of magic use not seen in traditional fantasy, but for decades, Wizards in fantasy have long since left D&D Wizards in the dust with their quaint notion of limited spells per day.

If you wanted to more appropriately map modern spellcasters onto D&D, you'd have to make the top tier spells require long rituals, pacts with eldritch beings, or access to magical relics to be enabled, but then make the lower end spells essentially at-will or encounter powers, so people are throwing out lightning bolts and magic missiles many times per day if required.
Exactly. That’s why I suggested mana for combat spells an rituals for non-combat spells upthread.
 

The Big Dumb Muscle Warrior of the oiginal fighting man levels up to the Hulking Brute to me.
Either the Fighting Man becomes a Lord or a Hulk.
This is alien to me.

If you wanted to more appropriately map modern spellcasters onto D&D, you'd have to make the top tier spells require long rituals, pacts with eldritch beings, or access to magical relics to be enabled, but then make the lower end spells essentially at-will or encounter powers, so people are throwing out lightning bolts and magic missiles many times per day if required.
I would love to see that. I've been saying for months at least that wizards should get fewer slots, and get signature spell and spell mastery at lower level with more gradual scaling up, but never above level 3 to 5 spells.
 


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