Unpopular opinions go here

[Gradine]

Yeah, I don't think anyone is sitting here saying that MMORPGs are TTRPGs, just that the act of playing a TTRPG can be done within framework of an MMORPG, and any definition of the activity of playing a TTRPG that deliberately excludes those examples isn't inclusive enough to be worthwhile.

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

Now, do i think there are many groups playing a "TTRPG" with WoW? No. But it is theoretically possible and with the millions of people that do play WoW and my experience with some of them that are really, really into the role-play aspect, I feel confident in saying that whatever the number is, it is non-zero.

No, because the world isn't created (instantiated) through the interaction between participants.

The world of the game is instantiated solely by rule; the game exists not because of the interaction of people, but because it is generated through algorithm.

Saying that people can roleplay on the margins of the activity is the same as saying that people can roleplay their activities while playing Monopoly. It doesn't magically transmogrify the game itself into an RPG, because what is true in the game (the diegetic framework created by the interaction of the participants) is independent of the interaction of the participants.

 

[Gradine]

An RPG is a broad style of game. Tabletop, computer, Japanese, Western, MMO, solo, GM-less, etc are adjectives that modify the noun RPG. They are platforms to play on or styles of play, they are not definitional aspects of RPG...which is why CRPG, MMORPG, solo RPG, etc all make sense.

Torturing the definition of "tabletop" to make it somehow abstractly apply to all RPGs is more than a bit ridiculous.

Is it really any less ridiculous that torturing the definition of "film" or "book"?

Language evolves. I've yet to hear an argument at all, let alone a convincing one, that insists that Roll20 is a "Tabletop" but Neverwinter Nights isn't.

 

[Cadence]

There will always be some bleed between the categories. Just because some folks role play like a TTRPG in Wow, doesn't suddenly make it a TTRPG. Just because you use apps and/or a VTT doesn't mean you are now playing a MMORPG.

The usefulness of the terms is in the general sense, not the specific. YMMV.

But being reasonable like that might ruin the fun of proposing the category tttRPG (first t being traditional) and then arguing about what traditional is.

 

[Gradine]

Yeah, I don't think anyone is sitting here saying that MMORPGs are TTRPGs, just that the act of playing a TTRPG can be done within framework of an MMORPG, and any definition of the activity of playing a TTRPG that deliberately excludes those examples isn't inclusive enough to be worthwhile.

To expand upon this thought for a second; is it worthwhile to meaningfully distinguish the physical product of a TTRPG from the actual activity of engaging in its methods of play? I'm not sure that it is

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

Language evolves. I've yet to hear an argument at all, let alone a convincing one, that insists that Roll20 is a "Tabletop" but Neverwinter Nights isn't.

Sure. And some people say that there is absolutely no difference between self-pleasure and intimacy with a partner.

I tend to disagree with those people ... and, um, not shake their hands.

 

[Reynard]

No, because the world isn't created (instantiated) through the interaction between participants.

You are going to have to be more specific in your definitions here, because on first reading this also excludes playing a full developed adventure (with all the maps and tokens and effects etc) on a VTT. The interaction of the participants doesn't create that world, either. A designer or the rules did.

Or imagine a TTRPG played on a VTT with an AI GM. Is that a TTRPG? Does the answer change if the players don't realize it is an AI GM?

 

[Gradine]

Sure. And some people say that there is absolutely no difference between self-pleasure and intimacy with a partner.

I tend to disagree with those people ... and, um, not shake their hands.

You're treating Neverwinter Nights as a single player CRPG, as opposed to a framework that was essentially one of the first proto-VTTs that utilized the engine of said single-player CRPG, using development kits created and shared by the makers of said game, to run actual live DM'ed content online.

If NWN is, then a VTT, and DM-less RPGs are still valid RPGs, then what separates role-playing MMORPG servers? "Worldbuilding" is not a strong enough distinction for me.

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

You are going to have to be more specific in your definitions here, because on first reading this also excludes playing a full developed adventure (with all the maps and tokens and effects etc) on a VTT. The interaction of the participants doesn't create that world, either. A designer or the rules did.

Or imagine a TTRPG played on a VTT with an AI GM. Is that a TTRPG? Does the answer change if the players don't realize it is an AI GM?

I already addressed AI, above.

As for VTTs, I think you know the answer to that if you think about it for even a second. It's not the "gotcha" that you think.

 

[Cadence]

You are going to have to be more specific in your definitions here, because on first reading this also excludes playing a full developed adventure (with all the maps and tokens and effects etc) on a VTT. The interaction of the participants doesn't create that world, either. A designer or the rules did.

Or imagine a TTRPG played on a VTT with an AI GM. Is that a TTRPG? Does the answer change if the players don't realize it is an AI GM?

Having read what some of our fellow ENians do, I daresay the AI may be quite a bit more ttRPG than...