D&D 5E [+] Ways to fix the caster / non-caster gap

[Micah Sweet]

As was done by Gygax. Who of course literally called PCs superheroes. (Level 8 fighting man IIRC)

And this is an argument "I should get everything and you should get nothing at all".

Wouldn't be a problem if all parties didn't insist that their view needed to be realized in "official" Dungeons & Dragons. But they do, so the tent keeps getting bigger and the game keeps getting blander.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Beginning of Thor: Ragnarok

Opening..

"Oh no..Thor's in a cage" (underground with another skeletal prisoner..wait...is this a Dungeon(tm)?)

Is confronted by a giant..wisecracks a bit with said giant..before breaking out of chains. Fights a bunch of mooks..and then what's that??

A Dragon(tm)!!

He runs away for a bit but is caught, and is forced to slay the beast with his magic hammer

..And this isn't the gameplay we want out of the Dungeons & Dragons RPG?

Edit: the more times I compare the Thor movies to D&D, the more I think MCU Asgard should be the model folks should use when designing a D&D setting. It even featured evil elves in it.

No fighter-type PC in D&D is as cool as Thor.

 

[mamba]

..And this isn't the gameplay we want out of the Dungeons & Dragons RPG?

gameplay: similar, power level: significantly lower

 

[Gammadoodler]

No fighter-type PC in D&D is as cool as Thor.

And they shouldn't be?

Bc..That's the thing right. Folks like to use comparisons to the MCU pejoratively, but if you actually look at stuff that happens in the MCU, many of the scenarios, challenges, and solutions are very reminiscent of D&D..some very directly.

 

[Gammadoodler]

gameplay: similar, power level: significantly lower

Most everything he does in that opening scene has direct D&D analogues.

Breaking chains and beating stuff up.

The most OP thing he does is fly..and that's using the magic hammer..

And he's in the upper echelon of capability in the MCU.

 

[Campbell]

I never put much stock in the level titles.

And yes, 1e was soft-capped at 9th but remained playable for a few levels after that, collapsing at about 12th.

5e, if it wants to be a 20-level game, needs to make 20th level about as powerful as 1e name-level. Then, for thems as wants it, come up with an optional epic-level system for 21st and beyond.

Doing so would also involve scaling up monsters like ancient wyrms, pit fiends, mariliths, storm giants, fey lords, etc. It would also likely need to be accompanied by moving up high level spell effects to the 20+ range. Basically, just expanding the current 14+ game to 20+. I am not entirely opposed (was completely fine when 4e basically did it), but it's pretty much just changing numbers around. It's basically not really changing anything other than explicitly calling the part people generally don't use anyway as optional.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

Most everything he does in that opening scene has direct D&D analogues.

Breaking chains and beating stuff up.

The most OP thing he does is fly..and that's using the magic hammer..

And he's in the upper echelon of capability in the MCU.

I mean he can also one shot a skyscraper and tank a neutron star, and those sound a tad above what I'd expect in D&D, but yeah, chain breaking and dragon fighting are obviously fine.

 

[Lanefan]

Why is that a problem? And I really don't see point of levelling if it doesn't affect the scope of the characters' capabilities.

Levellng can change the characters' capabilities but not every level has to change them very much. It's when designers think they have to give a new power at every level, plus try to design for 20 (or more) levels, plus not have 1st level really be 1st level (there's room for at least one more level between commoner and current-1st) that things get right out of hand at the top end.

 

[Neonchameleon]

Levellng can change the characters' capabilities but not every level has to change them very much. It's when designers think they have to give a new power at every level, plus try to design for 20 (or more) levels, plus not have 1st level really be 1st level (there's room for at least one more level between commoner and current-1st) that things get right out of hand at the top end.

Just about every single edition of D&D has given casters a new power at every level, with a significant increase in those powers every other level. This is because spells are a type of power. An extra spell slot? An extra power. An extra spell level? An extra power, more powerful than those that came before.

So D&D has been out of control by your definition pretty much ever since they opened up the teen levels, if not before.

 

[Micah Sweet]

And they shouldn't be?

Bc..That's the thing right. Folks like to use comparisons to the MCU pejoratively, but if you actually look at stuff that happens in the MCU, many of the scenarios, challenges, and solutions are very reminiscent of D&D..some very directly.

Never said that. But if you want to keep up with Doctor Strange, you need to be Thor. I still recommend a new supernatural warrior class if that's your goal.