D&D 5E [+] Ways to fix the caster / non-caster gap

[doctorbadwolf]

No I'm saying wizard should eat sorcerer.

Backwards. Sorcerer is the base class concept. Wizard is a sorcerer who dig into the nature of magic and learned how it works and why yell “grew le!” While brandishing bat poop causes a fireball.

 

[TwoSix]

That's actually not entirely unreasonable. A DM could restrict his campaign, or even just specific classes, to a certain Tier or Tiers. So, like, the game reaches level 10, you look at the players of the fighter and thief and "have you picked a new character yet?"

Would be a perfect opportunity to add back Prestige Classes, too.

Agreed. One of the mistakes of 4e, I feel, was having class scale all the way to 30, rather than stopping at 10 and having progression replaced by Paragon Path.

Jumping up into a new tier shouldn't simply be evolutionary, it should be transformational.

Jon Snow can't hope to fight against Demon Lords and Ancient Dragons. A Jon Snow who can warg into dragons, and gains draconic strength and stamina even in his normal form, is a narrative that fits what Tier 3 and 4 D&D play should look like.

 

[mamba]

We could generalize that whatever experience the campaign offered, it was sufficiently exotic to justify the capabilities the PCs recieve.

It's simple, clean, and matches up with the existing model for leveling up in D&D.

we can generalize all we want, somehow the same experience still resulted in vastly more powerful casters than martials. That is what needs fixing

 

[Gammadoodler]

in theory I could kill a million Orcs in an arena too and get to the same level. The exotic exposure is not giving me XP. This is nothing like what happened to Spiderman

They say the act of killing does something to a man..

But let's talk about your theory vs. my examples. Which version better represents the your D&D experience in play? Which do you think better represents the intended play experience?

 

[mamba]

They say the act of killing does something to a man..

But let's talk about your theory vs. my examples. Which version better represents the your D&D experience in play? Which do you think better represents the intended play experience?

I have yet to see anyone kill a million orcs in an arena, but the point was not about the intended play experience, was it…

 

[Micah Sweet]

Orrr..

We could generalize that whatever experience the campaign offered, it was sufficiently exotic to justify the capabilities the PCs recieve.

It's simple, clean, and matches up with the existing model for leveling up in D&D.

It also makes assumptions that may have nothing to do with actual events, yet have real consequences for the PC. Not really interested in that.

 

[Gammadoodler]

we can generalize all we want, somehow the same experience still resulted in vastly more powerful casters than martials. That is what needs fixing

Sure.

The point is that whatever capabilities the martials could end up with, they have already been adequately justified by what the martial has already experienced.

We don't need to worry about "how supernatural" those capabilities might be or the specifics of how they got them.

 

[TwoSix]

They say the act of killing does something to a man..

But let's talk about your theory vs. my examples. Which version better represents the your D&D experience in play? Which do you think better represents the intended play experience?

I mean, what's wrong with fantasy worlds just having a narrative of "Some people are given hidden blessings by the gods. These people can grow in stature, skill, and will from risk. danger and exposure to the evils of the world to grow into people who can challenge the gods themselves".

 

[mamba]

The point is that whatever capabilities the martials could end up with, they have already been adequately justified by what the martial has already experienced.

We don't need to worry about "how supernatural" those capabilities might be or the specifics of how they got them.

I am not worried about how they got them, I am not interested in them turning into Thor or The Hulk. The solution is not to make everyone a superhero, the solution is for no one to be one.

There already is a Marvels TTRPG if that is what you are looking for…

 

[Gammadoodler]

I have yet to see anyone kill a million orcs in an arena, but the point was not about the intended play experience, was it…

It's at least a part of it. If the intended play experience is exotic, and your DM willfully goes against that intent, there will be dissonance.

I think it's mostly healthy to generalize for an experience outside of what might occur at a table where the DM is actively engaging in sadism.