D&D (2024) Elves without racism [+]

[Bagpuss]

Culture is the more useful way to describe human diversity.

Agreed but we aren't describing humans though.

Just want to be clear under this system anyone on can gain two extra Mythral abilities just by claiming to be "raised by elves" in their background.

 

[Yaarel]

Nothing wrong with creatures having racist attitudes in fantasy, as long as they are treated as harmful and wrong. Bad guys can be bad.

The D&D Elf traditions are too entangled with reallife racism, to go there. The 2024 Elf design needs to discontinue "elven racism" decisively.


I worry how the Udadrow culture will play out in 2024. Besides the culture flavor being a narrative that expresses overt racist extremism, ... it normalizes slavery.

(D&D threw the Dark Sun setting into a blackhole because of the issue of slavery, despite Dark Sun also having many redeeming and relevant tropes.)

The existence of Non-Uda communities allows players to explore other Drow cultures, and these relativize the Uda culture. In a way, this could allow the DM to make the Udadrow culture more monstrous. But the Udadrow culture is a reallife popculture phenomenon. It is impossible to "prevent" players from embracing it. So how the culture treats issues like slavery, race, feminism, and so on, invokes reallife ethical responsibilities.

Part of the solution is, the Lolth followers are a "faction", literally a demon cult. Meanwhile, most of the Udadrow culture isnt members of this faction. Reasonably, there is open resistance against faction, even when the faction has political hegemony and many fear it.

There are plenty of examples of how a culture fears the party that is in power.

An ethnographer needs to ask, what does an Uda culture look like before the faction gained power, and what might it look like after the faction is gone?

Generally, the Udadrow cities are in the Underdark below Western Faerun. Most are autonomous city-states. It is easy to make Menzoberranzan a city where the Lolth faction is securely in power, while elsewhere an other Udadrow city has overthrown its Lolth faction. If necessary, there can be Udadrow communities elsewhere in Faerun, or on planet Toril, that never followed the Lolth faction.

Agreed but we aren't describing humans though.

Just want to be clear under this system anyone on can gain two extra Mythral abilities just by claiming to be "raised by elves" in their background.

When it comes to D&D Elf "subraces", they are exactly describing human-esque ethnicities, and doing it offensively.

By the way, I am looking at the term "Drow" similar to the way I look at the term "English speaker" (or Anglophone). English speakers are a cultural group that include many diverse cultures. Likewise, "Drow" is comparable to a language that includes diverse cultures: Uda, Aeven, Loren, Seldarine, etcetera.)

 

[Frozen_Heart]

If only more people thought that way.

You want species to be purely aesthetic? With things like flight or water breathing being cultural? As that's what's being talked about in that article.

One quote from it: "It’s always associating historically heroic races with Western and Northern European traits. And then my immediate response to that is what accent does an orc have?” The responses, he noted, are not ‘they sound British."

When British sounding orcs are a rather famous stereotype. I've even seen pirate orcs with a rather exaggerated 'pirate' accent. Said 'pirate' accent descending from my own local accent.

 

[Yaarel]

Just want to be clear under this system anyone on can gain two extra Mythral abilities just by claiming to be "raised by elves" in their background.

Yes. But.

The DM has control over the setting. The DM decides which Elf communities exist, and which Mythals they have. So the DM has some gatekeeping power.

Obviously, the DM should do everything to make D&D more fun for the player, and it is important for the DM to make room for player comfort and preferences. Even so, for the sake of the coherence of the setting, the DM needs to make these kinds of decisions. Sometimes it is tricky to figure out how integrate a players wishes within the premise of a setting.

Anyway, "raised by elves" is a fun character concept that can invite player immersion, and in Forgotten Realms there are many places where Elves include Nonelves.

In sum: A Mythal that you and your DM agree on.

What is true for Mythal Feats is true for all background Feats. They all imply setting-specific narratives for how the Feat is acquired. It is up to the players at the game table to decide how deep they want to get into these background narratives.

 

[Alzrius]

You want species to be purely aesthetic? With things like flight or water breathing being cultural? As that's what's being talked about in that article.

No, that's literally the opposite of what I want, but that attitude seems to go against the popular zeitgeist; hence why I posted that tweet (i.e. by a prominent game journalist suggesting that even BG3, a masterpiece by any measure, was committing "sins" because "fantasy racism is still racism," in contrast to what @Bagpuss cogently noted).

 

[Frozen_Heart]

No, that's literally the opposite of what I want, but that attitude seems to go against the popular zeitgeist; hence why I posted that tweet (i.e. by a prominent game journalist suggesting that even BG3, a masterpiece by any measure, was committing "sins" because "fantasy racism is still racism," in contrast to what @Bagpuss cogently noted).

Not really played baulders gate 3. How is its character creation in comparison to 2014 5e?

Like I would understand the complaints if things like languages and tool usage is somehow species linked still. But if the issue is elves having trance then I disagree with it.

 

[Alzrius]

Not really played baulders gate 3. How is its character creation in comparison to 2014 5e?

I couldn't tell you; I don't have a gaming-capable PC (or a console that it's available on). My comment about it being a masterpiece was with regard to the general sentiment toward the game that I've heard from various gaming-news outlets.

 

[aco175]

Heh. Actually.

According to the 2014 Players Handbook, defaulting to the Forgotten Realms setting, the Human species has nine large cultures.

I think you took my point wrong, I do not find that having human cultures the same as having human sub-races. All humans get the same stock abilities. There is no Viking human race with cold resistance and darkvision compared to a African human that has fire resistance and a bonus to AC if not wearing armor. The same could be done with elves in that there could be just a stock elf.

Linking ability improvements to "race" is harmful. The moment one looks to reallife cultures for inspiration to describe a "low Intelligence" "race", it is instantly problematic.

Again, my point was that the +2/+1 and a feat was enough if there is only one type of elf. There is no problem since the individual PC is the one getting the bonus. If someone wants to say their elf grew up near the ocean, he can place the +2 in STR and the +1 in WIS and be done and someone else can say their elf trained in a temple so he has +2 INT and +1 CHA instead. This does not have to be tied to backgrounds or the culture.

 

[Yaarel]

To me ideal elf would be:

1. Elven immunities
2. Elven trance
3. Darkvision 60ft
4. Proficiency+Expertise in perception
5. one extra cantrip or +5ft move speed or +60ft darkvison, depending on subspecies.

then add +2/+1/+1 ASI

Then add background/culture;
+3 skills
+3 tools/languages/weapons
+1 feat

This is the Elf character concept that you want to build.

Using the Mythal design above, maybe something like this.

ELF [character sheet]
Creature Type: Fey Human
Size: Medium [6 feet tall]
Speed: 30 feet
Lifespan: [Age 20] Eternal youth (but dont get killed)
Trance
Fey Ancestry (Charm Resistance)
Cantrip
Moon Mythal (Darkvision, Perception)

So far, the main difference is, you want to swap out the slot-1 and slot-2 spells. But you arent getting anything in return for it, so you might as well keep these. They are kind of nice, even tho they arrive later at higher levels.


Now the background design space:
ability scores: +2, +1
2 skills
1 tool
1 feat

Note, every character has a language, normally but not necessarily "Common". Additionally, the species grants a choice of language (whatever language the species community chooses to speak and not necessarily the indigenous language), and the background grants a choice of language (whatever language the individual makes an effort to learn).


Mainly, you are swapping the slot-1 and slot-2 spells for an extra +1 ability score improvement to a third ability. Balancewise, that roughly fair, and as a DM I would happily allow the swap. But since a tertiary floating score bump is kinda flavorless, I personally prefer it be unofficial.

Meanwhile, I wouldnt worry about the third skill, since the class will be adding even more skills. And if it is imperative to the character concept to get that extra skill, it is worth spending the feat to obtain it.


Thinking about your design preferences:

The slot-1 and slot-2 spells are together worth a feat. (The spells come very late in levels, but since the player can choose from any spell list, that is probably for the best.) It is possible to have the slot spells be a Mythal: Innate Caster Mythal.

Then the Elf design would be: Trance, Charm Resistance, Cantrip, plus a choice of two Mythals.
Meanwhile Innate Caster and Moon would be the two default Mythals (for players who dont want to make the effort to choose the Mythals).

 

[Yaarel]

I think you took my point wrong, I do not find that having human cultures the same as having human sub-races. All humans get the same stock abilities. There is no Viking human race with cold resistance and darkvision compared to a African human that has fire resistance and a bonus to AC if not wearing armor. The same could be done with elves in that there could be just a stock elf.

The Elf species requires the same cultural sensitivity that the Human species requires.

Because, in D&D Elf "subrace" traditions: There is such thing as a "brown" "savage" "tribal" "low Intelligence" culture. There is such thing as a "black" "Evil" culture. And many more problems.

The Elf subraces must discontinue.


Even the Mythal design here is vulnerable to the possibility of a specific elven community getting assigned a reallife racist trope. But at least the mechanics wont enforce it. And there will be individuals who contradict the stereotype.