D&D 5E [+] Ways to fix the caster / non-caster gap

[Micah Sweet]

but the humans are part of the world, if the baselines of this fantasy world are different from our own world then the baselines of the humans in it would thus be similarly different, wouldn't they.

No. The fact that the world has magic is not proof that humans in D&D are actually aliens who just happen to look and act like us and have the same name.

 

[TwoSix]

Again, in a world with magic, people can apparently learn to shoot fire from their brain. That is not a function of humanity. That is a function of the world.

And I'm saying that the definition of humanity only functions within this world.

 

[TwoSix]

Superman's explicitly non-magical powers (he actually has a problem with magic) are a result of his alien physiology, manifested due to Earth's yellow sun. His genre calls him out as not human, and his abilities come from his being not human. There is no outside genre conceits here.

And all Kryptonians have powers like Superman's because its a species trait of Kryptonians. Do all humans in the Forgotten Realms have magic Elminster? Did Elminister get magic because of who he is from a species perspective? Of course not, because your example makes no sense.

If we can't agree that Superman has magic powers, where magic is obviously being used as a synonym for supernatural, then I don't think further debates will have much traction. We obviously approach these sort of definitions from drastically opposed mindsets.

 

[mamba]

Why is Superman an alien and Elminster of Faerun is a human, outside of the genre conceits?

because Superman is in the story not a human, no human could do what Superman does, regardless of any training. Elminster in the story is a human, other humans can gain the same powers.

Unless you consider this genre conceits, but then that still does not help you because D&D is clearly in one genre, and it is not Superman’s…

 

[CreamCloud0]

No. The fact that the world has magic is not proof that humans in D&D are actually aliens who just happen to look and act like us and have the same name.

i didn't mean that they're fundamentally not humans, i meant that there would be environmental factors that would influence their growth and abilities, it's like heavyworlders and lightworlders, take a group of regular humans split the group in two and put one on a planet with x1.5 gravity and the other on x0.5 gravity, fastforward several thousand years and there's going to be some differences developed between them yet they're still both going to be fundamentally humans, the heavyworlders might have stronger bones and denser muscles and lightworlders might have developed stronger legs to optimise their increased opportunity for mobility but they're still humans.

 

[mamba]

OK. But why cannot we also assume that in world of magic and fantasy heroic humans that have fought dozens of mythical beasts can surpass the physical limitations of normal humans?

If the rules says so, we can assume it, until then…

I have no problem with martials not just being really skilled athletes and fighters, I just draw the line of what they should be able to reach (Captain America, not Ironman / Hulk) in a different spot and adjust the casters to match instead of being Dr Stranges

 

[Cadence]

And I'm saying that the definition of humanity only functions within this world.

And so does that mean you have to stop and think about the answers to:

Does dumping animal excrement and dead bodies in the well cause any inconvenience for humans or is the water probably still fine with no treatment?
Does blindfolding someone stop them from seeing?
Is the human brain located in the hand and the heart located in the foot?
Do humans need to breath (unless they've been held under water)?
Does twisting someones neck really hard hurt them or can they just spin it back?
Do humans poop?
Does too much alcohol make humans get drunk?
Can most humans hear the really high-pitched dog whistles?
Can most humans see the visible light spectrum but not infra red or ultra violet?
Can you generally tell apart a human in their teens and in their 90s just by looking?
Do humans bleed when stabbed?
Do humans bruise when hit hard?
If you someone is tied down to a chair and their arm is cut off will they bleed to death?
Can a decapitated person probably just carry their head around? (Like the one character in the Halloween Dark Angel episode).
Do human children generally grow taller from year to year as they age?
Do humans lay eggs?

or not?

 

[TwoSix]

And so does that mean you have to stop and think about the answers to:

or not?

Everyone of them is definitely something that could be questioned. For ease of use, I would assume "yes" for the bulk of them for non-leveling or non-progressing characters, but I've read plenty of stories where quite a few of them would be answered "no" for any characters who have progressed even a small amount.

 

[Cadence]

Everyone of them is definitely something that could be questioned. For ease of use, I would assume "yes" for the bulk of them for non-leveling or non-progressing characters, but I've read plenty of stories where quite a few of them would be answered "no" for any characters who have progressed even a small amount.

I'm curious which your no's are now.

 

[Micah Sweet]

OK. But why cannot we also assume that in world of magic and fantasy heroic humans that have fought dozens of mythical beasts can surpass the physical limitations of normal humans?

Of course, past a certain level line. But I would prefer that to be explicitly stated in the text. I dislike unstated assumptions.