D&D 5E [+] Ways to fix the caster / non-caster gap

[Tony Vargas]

Didn't PF1e have a detailed set of levels of supernatural/magical classifications and what could affect them?

3.5 had (EX)traordinary and (SU)pernatural in addition to spells, as I recall. Useful tags. The Monk's stunning fist, for instance, was (SU), while the barbarian's rage or rogue's evasion was (EX)

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

I agree with everything you wrote, but I expected the second thing to be ‘no Bards’

If I had one wish that I could wish for this Halloween Season, it would be that they would announce more design space for subclasses and that all the gamers of the world would join hands and sing in the spirit of harmony and peace.

If I had two wishes, the first would be more design space for subclasses and all the gamers of the world would join hands and sing in the spirit of harmony and peace. And the second would be for all gamers to get exactly what they want out of D&D.

You know, if I had three wishes, the first, of course, would be that they would announce more design space and all the gamers of the world would join hands and sing, the second would be people getting what they want or something, and the third would be for killing off all of the Bards.

And if I had four wishes that I could make, the first would be the crap about design space and the gamers getting along and stuff and singing, the second would be for people getting what they want or whatever, the third would be to kill of those Bards already, and the fourth would be for all-encompassing power over every living being in the entire universe.

Wait a minute, maybe the all-encompassing power should be the first wish, because it could all go boom tomorrow, then what do you got, y'know? No, no, design space and all those gamers singing and getting along ... that would be great, that would be nice. But wait a minute, who am I kidding? They're not going to be able to get all the gamers together. I mean, the logistics of the thing is impossible, more trouble than it's worth! They'd probably start arguing over editions before they even start singing. So -- we reorganize! Here we go. First, the power. We go with that. Second, killing all those bards. And then give other people what they want ... NO, wait, we give ME what I WANT. Which is killing those dang Bards already. Oh, and those soulless, dead-eyed elves. And money. Lots and lots of money.

Oh wait, oh jeez, I forgot about revenge against my enemies! Okay, I need revenge against all my enemies, they should die like pigs in hell! That would be my fourth wish.

And, of course, my fifth wish would be for other gamers to get stuff they want. Maybe while singing.

 

[W'rkncacnter]

Let's got straight 7th Sea ruins an entire class of characters on this:

The Devil linked all human muscles to the seal the keeps him out of the world. Every time you use your muscles, it syphons power away from this seal and whenever you do something fun and awesome, it syphons an order of magnitude more. So it turns out every martial character is unknowingly helping The Devil.

i'd sock my dm in the mouth if they pulled this twist on me for going fighter.

absolutely perfect fulfillment of the prompt.

 

[Tony Vargas]

It would be cool to get back to the thread's actual topic of ways to fix the gap between casters and non-casters. Any new ideas in that regard?

New? This is a problem that has persisted for almost 48 years of D&D almost 50 year history!

Let me just review... We could close the martial/caster gap by...

Simply not having casters - pretty brutal, since that's eliminating all but maybe half-a-dozen sub-classes as PC choices, and 8 out of 12 classes, gone.

Much more reasonably, simply not having martials - you lose no classes, and 5 or 6 sub-classes. Or, to keep them available to feel superior too, retain them as NPC-only classes.

Giving martial characters powerful/limited-use superhuman abilities to equal spells. You can't cast Meteor Swarm but you can instantly kill just as many orcs in one action, using the jawbone of a [donkey] or something...

Reducing the power of casters to equal that of martials - for instance, roughly, eliminting slots entirely, leaving casters only cantrips and rituals.

Any combination of nerfing casters and buffing martials that leaves them more or less equally viable choices, while remaining meaningfully differentiated.

Playing a game that isn't D&D.


I think, clearly, the simplest, least disruptive solution is to just remove the few non-caster sub-classes as player options. Make them NPC classes like a 3.5 commoner.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Laughable, yet true. It's a fact. The class can cast spells.

Irrelevant. The class allows playing non-casting characters. Most fighters don’t cast spells.

You could play a wizard, and never prepare a spell. Does that mean it's not a spellcasting class? Laughable.

5e has a handful of non-casting sub-classes in the PH, everyone else uses spells in some way.

Does it matter? Sure, the choices offered in an RPG matter. Thats all the game is, really, it presents you with a lot of choices, the ones it doesn't give you say as much about it as the ones that do.
Sadly, the mostly clearly evident meaning is that the fighter's perennial claim to most popular class may have less to do with the class itself, or even the concept, as to simply a lack of alternatives.

Nah that’s a thing you’re reading into it that isn’t there.

 

[Gammadoodler]

i'd sock my dm in the mouth if they pulled this twist on me for going fighter.

absolutely perfect fulfillment of the prompt.

..and as your feet touch down on the other side of the gorge, you feel a deep rumble from below as blinding red flashes of darkness sear the sky.

A deep bellowing laugh issues from beneath your feet.

You look behind you and below to base of the fathomless gorge your titanic leap had carried you over..and behold a pair of vast yellow eyes attached to an enormous and incomprehensibly dark and twisted frame rapidly ascending from below.

And somehow you feel as though you are responsible for this..

But when you meet the guy he explains how he gave you all this martial power while all the celestials were going...."noooo..that's not magic enough"..and you realize he's a pretty good dude. You're planning on meeting up for coffee on Thursday after he gets done razing a few temples. You might tag along for the temple-razing if you can get out of the gym on time.

 

[Lanefan]

Fighters should have new features that simply make their mundanity work for them and make them a bane to magical enemies [...]

Worth noting perhaps that in 1e very-low-level Fighters had the worst saves vs magic but by high levels their saves vs magic were the best of any class.

 

[Lanefan]

personally i think there really ought to be more variance in base movespeed and movement capabilities between classes, both for their initial speed and what they gain as they level up, like, a wizard and a sorcerer might both start with 20ft movement, but while the wizard won't get any additional movespeed the sorcerer might get an additional 5ft or two as they level up(being physically enhanced by magic), a rogue might have 25ft but they have cunning action dash and maybe an ability that lets them shift 5ft when they sneak attack, monk starts with 35ft and just keeps getting additional movement as they level and opportunity attacks have disadvantage against them, fighter has 30ft with a half climbspeed and ignores difficult terrain and gets a couple of 5ft bumps, ranger has 25ft, also ignores difficult terrain and has bumps but has full climb and swimspeeds...

I see what you're getting at here and in fact like the idea; but once you tack on all the (IMO necessary) modifiers for size, species, and strength/dexterity, tracking everyone's move speed would become - going by the reaction to encumbrance rules, re-rolled initiatives, etc. - more fiddly than a lot of people would seem to want.

And you'd need to do this for all the opponents as well.

 

[FrozenNorth]

Given the ... length of this thread ... I am sure that this has already been addressed, but I wanted to comment on three separate things.

1. As for why I am replying, I completely agree with this statement. I have previously stated that, to me, the biggest issue with 5e is that too much design is taken up by the class, and too little is left for the sub-class.

Let’s dig into the option “reduce impact of class and increase impact of subclass” to solve the fighter’s problems.

What fighter class level features would need to be replaced to give them more powerful sub-classes?

Well, the level 1-5 features can probably be left alone for a couple of reasons. First, none of them is particularly supernatural, so they can appeal to players regardless of archetype they prefer. Second, at low levels, most classes feel pretty balanced. Spellcasters can’t waste spells, Bard and Rogue skills are still within BA, and fighters’ weaknesses in the social and exploration pillar are less apparent.

Ok, what about the 6+ features:

• level 6: extra ASI. Seems fair to ditch this for a more powerful subclass;
• level 9: Indomitable 1. This has basically no impact on a fighter’s overall power: leave it;
• level 11: extra attack. Fair enough. If fighters are going to be stronger out of combat, seems fair they should give up some combat prowess. Also, this makes sense as both rangers’ and paladins’ increase in damage at 11 is tied to their subclass.
• level 13: Indomitable 2. See level 9.
• level 14: second extra ASI. See level 6.
• level 17: Action Surge * 2; Indomitable * 3.
• level 20: Attacks * 4. This is a capstone, so I don’t see a good reason to change it.

But going through the fighter levels points to a second big weakness of the fighter. The base class is boring. You are doing the same thing at level 17, just with more attacks than you are doing at level 5.

One of my players played a fighter to level 11. At the end of the game, I could see that he was dissatisfied with the class even in combat. Every round of combat was booming blade, then attacks until the creature was dead (and occasional uses of Action Surge).

All the other classes had more interesting stuff to do in combat and more dials to tweak.

 

[Tony Vargas]

But going through the fighter levels points to a second big weakness of the fighter. The base class is boring. You are doing the same thing at level 17, just with more attacks than you are doing at level 5.

I suppose moving the boredom off the chassis and onto the Champion could help with that?