D&D 5E [+] Ways to fix the caster / non-caster gap

[mamba]

That's the point, though. We keep having the 'how do we fix the gap' and the two ways to fix it being either nerf magic casters (which makes the magic crew upset) or make the fighter supernatural, which makes the folks who want it to be purely mundane upset. So we meet it both ways by going "Cool. This is the level where mundanity stops"

you can do whatever you want, there is not just one possible solution here. As far as I am concerned, level 5 is a much too early cut off point, in that case why even bother.

If you want to go all out crazy at level 16 and manage to spare me that insanity until then, we can coexist. But not if the switch happens at level 5.

 

[overgeeked]

I made a dedicated thread about mundane vs supernatural martials to keep this thread on track. Please take that tangent over there.

https://www.enworld.org/threads/should-martial-characters-be-mundane-or-supernatural.700256/

 

[Mecheon]

This raises another point: for most people, max level exists only as a theoretical as their games just never get near it in practice.

Which means, discussing what to do to fix the gap as it appears at max level is of quite limited use except to theorycrafters. Instead, I'd say it'd be more productive to discuss fixing the somewhat-lesser gap that exists through the levels where the game is most commonly played in the wild, i.e. about 14th and less.

S'why I cut it early.

If folks insist we can't have fighters even playing to genre conventions and acting like action movie heroes because they have to be realistic, then, okay. I'll play. We'll make the cutoff for "Limited purely by real life" be level 5 and then we can go "Cool, we can now use the tropes of any action movie, any genre fiction, because we are done being limited to real life". Doesn't mean we need to go completely crazy and have them using the Shadowless Moon Strike Fourth Movement or the Maybe Blade, but by telling that group "Here's your limit" it can at least back-fill the martial/caster gap going forward by designating any level after as one we can use for back-filling

you can do whatever you want, there is not just one possible solution here. As far as I am concerned, level 5 is a much too early cut off point, in that case why even bother.

If you want to go all out crazy at level 16 and manage to spare me that insanity until then, we can coexist. But not if the switch happens at level 5.

Other classes are going off the rails at level 16. The fighter should be keeping pace with what those classes can do. Druids are turning into elementals, wizards are turning people into Tyrannosaurs

 

[Vaalingrade]

That's an actual oxymoron. Magical and supernatural are synonymous.

No. No they're not. Nor more than square and rectangle are.

 

[mamba]

Other classes are going off the rails at level 16. The fighter should be keeping pace with what those classes can do. Druids are turning into elementals, wizards are turning people into Tyrannosaurs

So what, by then your Fighter can too. My point was the cutoff point of 5 is way too low, just like you are now not happy with that being 16. Also, I am still all for nerfing casters, so the above will be fixed too

 

[ECMO3]

The Fighter as an archetype isn't an excuse to do those things; it's instead exactly the opposite, it's just a list of norms they aren't allowed to break before someone gets mad, and an extra helping of fairly arbitrary and slippery limitations on how any techniques they deploy should work to keep them within "mundane" norms.

While this may be true in terms of a "fighter archetype", it certainly is not true in terms of the current "fighter class" as many popular subclasses explicitly break mundane norms.

There is nothing within norms about Echo Knights, Eldritch Knights or Rune Knights. Right from level 3 they are all EXTREMELY supernatural. Arcane Archers and Psi Warriors are supernatural too, albeit less popular.

 

[ECMO3]

Or the third option people keep ignoring that is 'let mundane be fun and interesting by not making unreasonable demands of realism on a fantasy character.

Mundane is by definition ordinary, so I don't get what you mean by "let mundane be fun"

If you want to play a mundane fighter then go ahead and do it. If you don't want to play a mundane fighter then don't. No fighter is restricted to being mundane by the current rules. Not even a Champion.

 

[Vaalingrade]

Mundane is by definition ordinary, so I don't get what you mean by "let mundane be fun"

If you want to play a mundane fighter then go ahead and do it. If you don't want to play a mundane fighter then don't. No fighter is restricted to being mundane by the current rules. Not even a Champion.

We literally all know what is meant by 'mundane' in this context, so let's not even pretend.

 

[Minigiant]

Okay here's one.

The barbarian and monk have their own form of Unarmored Defense.

Should the fighter and rogue at some level gain Unarmored Defense? Or a Minimum AC.

I mean, the rogue is already not armor reliant and the fantasy tends to give fighters amazing parrying.

If you throw the continent's best knight in the dungeon and the country's most wanted thief picks the lock... do they need armor to escape and leave a red wave of destruction.

do they?

 

[Scribe]

If you throw the continent's best knight in the dungeon and the country's most wanted thief picks the lock... do they need armor to escape and leave a red wave of destruction.

do they?

The rogue doesnt, as you outlined they get other ways to mitigate damage. The Knight is in for a rough time, assuming he doesnt have Plot Armour and the dungeon is stocked with 'above mook' level.