On Indigenous Peoples Day Coyote & Crow pdf will be pay what you want

[Morrus]

No, it isn't, and you need to grow up and get over it.

Disagree with counterpoints, not insults, please.

 

[Indaarys]

This is, objectively, what is happening right now in this thread, with regard to this product.

Hard facts. Cold and icy.

As said earlier, the intention of Connors words are to be inclusive and empowering to indigenous players that may want to represent their own cultures in a way that just isn't anywhere else outside of their culture, and indeed, to provide a meaningful buffer against people bringing in stereotypes and ignorance.

Some may think they're being accused of not being trustworthy with these cultures they're being asked to not pretend to be.

And they're right.

If you were trustworthy to roleplay as an Indigenous person, you wouldn't be making a stink over this.

This, incidentally, is exactly why my first reaction to seeing this controversy (much more prevalent on Reddit than here, but even so) was to say that the game is going a great job of outing a bunch of That Guys.

Case in point, Coyote and Crow isn't exactly some big splash in the hobby. It isn't the first game of its sort, and not many will have heard of it in the aggregate to begin with.

That theres hundreds of people on Reddit and the two here making a stink, compared to basically no one talking about the game on its own merits, illustrates that the people making a stink are forcing it.

I would actually argue that most of these people haven't even bought the game and are just piling on to the dogpile. At least one person here almost assurredly hasn't actually read the game, and theres plenty of Redditors that outright admitted they didn't, and many more who clearly didn't.

Sad to say, as much as I may have had my own issues with Shadowdark as a game, it seems to me to be a repeat of the same types of people making a huge stink because of the identity politics involved and not because they actually care about the game.

Which is ironic given how many in the hobby consistently complain about keeping "politics" out of their gaming.

 

[Cordwainer Fish]

Which is ironic given how many in the hobby consistently complain about keeping "politics" out of their gaming.

"Keep politics out of it" always means "keep your politics out of it".

 

[Gradine]

(you might agree with it and fair enough, but for a lot of people this reflects a racist way of viewing the world)

This is in the same category as the "bringing up racism is racist" fallacy. There is no reasonable interpretation of respectfully stating, what is essentially: "have fun, please don't do a racism against the people this game is designed by and whose cultures we are trying to represent and share with you" that is "racist".

 

[Guest 85555]

This is in the same category as the "bringing up racism is racist" fallacy. There is no reasonable interpretation of respectfully stating, what is essentially: "have fun, please don't do a racism against the people this game is designed by and whose cultures we are trying to represent and share with you" that is "racist".

Again if the text had simply said, "please refrain from racist stereotypes and culturally insensitive portrayals", I would agree. But it specially is addressing different groups of people and telling them how to behave based on their race and cultural background. I don't think it is an enormous stretch here, even if a fallacy has been devised to deflect the criticism, to say that is a problem, and potentially racist. I get there has been a whole discourse around this which has brought you to the point where you feel differently. And we can discuss that, or not, or just agree to disagree, but I think a lot of people not only disagree with many turns that discourse has taken, but are justifiably alarmed by how it seems to be racist in its own way (albeit well intentioned racism, but still racism).

Also I don't know much about the guy who made this. He doesn't seem nefarious or anything like that. I don't think he is trying to be harmful here. I do think a series of bad ideas have been adopted that have led him to statements like the one in the book that most people would look at and be troubled by

 

[Gradine]

Again if the text had simply said, "please refrain from racist stereotypes and culturally insensitive portrayals", I would agree. But it specially is addressing different groups of people and telling them how to behave based on their race and cultural background.

That's not what's happening here at all. The entire thing, from top to bottom, is saying nothing more than, well, what you've offered here: "please refrain from racist stereotypes and culturally insensitive portrayals." It is, additionally, not "telling" anyone "how to behave". The specific language used here is "we ask you not" and "please avoid". These are not, in any way, demands. That he is addressing this specifically to non-indigenous (specifically non-indigenous to the Americas) people is not, in any way, shape or form, remotely racist. There is even a statement as to why: "Not only may this be culturally insensitive, but many of the assumptions you might make would not fit into this timeline." There is nary a declarative or definitive statement here. It "may be" culturally insensitive. The assumptions you "might make" wouldn't fit the timeline.

I simply cannot fathom any interpretation of this ask as racist that is not deliberately, alarmingly uncharitable.

 

[mamba]

Again if the text had simply said, "please refrain from racist stereotypes and culturally insensitive portrayals", I would agree.

that is what it is saying…

But it specially is addressing different groups of people and telling them how to behave based on their race and cultural background.

yeah, it is telling people that do not belong to a real world tribe to not play members of that tribe and to stick to what is in the book instead.

If this were Africa based instead of Native American that would be the same as saying ‘no blackface’…

 

[MGibster]

Its hyperbolic and meant to be more abrasive than Connor's attempt is in the book. It isn't literal.

I figured as much. I'm a little more concerned about the broader implications of "cosplaying" minorities. I had a Cyberpunk 2020 with a player whose character was a transgender woman. If you'll pardon the pun, she played the character straight meaning she wasn't the butt of any jokes nor were there ugly sterotypes involved. Was she "cosplaying" a minority?

I don't think the creators of C&C are racist nor am I particularly angry about it. I thought the premise of their setting was interesting, but they failed to deliver any particular hook to interest me in the game at all. But I'm generally happy for them creating the game they wanted to create and I hope others enjoy it as well.

 

[Guest 85555]

that is what it is saying…

This...

yeah, it is telling people that do not belong to a real world tribe to to not play members of that tribe and to stick to what is in the book instead.

Seems different from the above

If this were Africa based instead of Native American that would be the same as saying ‘no blackface’…

I don't think it is the same. Telling people they aren't allowed to play player characters from a real world group is like saying you can't play a white character, an Italian character, an asian character, a Jewish character, etc. Part of the whole point of art like movies, books and in particular games, is to put ourselves in the shoes of people who we are not and imagine what it is like to be them. This cuts off an entire area of that. You are effectively segregating people along racial lines in the imaginary world. Now if he had just said to be respectful please when you do that, or offer some advice on that matter, I think it would be totally different (and we could have a conversation about how much guidance and what guidance would be appropriate). But this is like telling someone they aren't allowed to play the blues because of their skin tone. It is wrong in so many ways. I get there is a new way of looking at race that doesn't see it as wrong, and sees it as advancement. But I still think that is a deeply flawed perspective that leads to more resentment, less empathy, less cultural exchange and more conflict.

 

[Guest 85555]

I simply cannot fathom any interpretation of this ask as racist that is not deliberately, alarmingly uncharitable.

People have different reactions and interpretation of things, and they take their own lenses to them. We could go over the text and identify where I think it is a problem and where you think it isn't. I suspect thought that such an exercise would probably end with us having to agree to disagree because it seems we have very different views on this subject.