D&D General In Search of "the" Ideal Monster Presentation

aco175

Legend
I'm not sure I would want 3 pages or 4 with artwork for one monster. Even one as powerful and apex as this. This is a once a campaign monster or a campaign arc for a few levels for me. I would rather have a few pager for the more common monsters, but then players know about goblins and giants and such that you do not need the whole setup.

I do like having lore broken up into common and more rare so there can be a check to learn something.
 

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dave2008

Legend
I'm not sure I would want 3 pages or 4 with artwork for one monster. Even one as powerful and apex as this. This is a once a campaign monster or a campaign arc for a few levels for me. I would rather have a few pager for the more common monsters, but then players know about goblins and giants and such that you do not need the whole setup.

I do like having lore broken up into common and more rare so there can be a check to learn something.
FYI, your post refers to a particular monster, but you didn't quote anything. Therefore there is no monster to reference your criticism. Furthermore, your post is at the top of the page, so there is no previous post either.

Sorry, my pet peeve on these forums is when people respond to a specific post without quoting it!
 

dave2008

Legend
TBH I find the attitude expressed by @Clint_L to be sort of presuming that monster write-ups should be written with a specific kind of DM in mind - a DM who (a) is experienced and (b) wants to have a bunch of their own lore rather than the default. This is something I can't agree with.

If you (general you) want monsters to have their own lore at your own table, you can already do that.

But a new DM, or a DM who doesn't want to have to come up with a bunch of lore, shouldn't have to. There should be enough detail to "plug and play" a monster both in and out of combat at the very least. More intelligent monsters will necessarily require more write-up than, say, animal-like predators. Monster write-ups for specific settings can be more detailed.

Overall
I prefer a single monster to a page, with maybe a two-page spread for more significant monsters. If a single monster is getting more page count than that, it should be for lore, random tables, and maybe a variant stat block. If you're using a large font size, you might have to go to a two-page-spread per monster across the board.

Also, the entire description, both lore and stat block, should be focused towards using the monster in play. If page count permits, more lore can be provided that is not "play-focused", but if you've got maybe one column, or part of a column, you need to make the most of it.

I should say I'm quite partial to the designs that @Sacrosanct has posted. I don't care for the way the Hacklopedia uses all those paragraphs - I'd prefer bullet points, myself - but I'm not prepared to opine on the content proper since I can't read it.

Monster Lore
If you're inexperienced or don't want to put in the work to come up with a bunch of lore, the monster lore should be sufficient to fit a monster into the "presumed default" setting for a game, such as a "kitchen sink" fantasy setting in the case of core book 5e. If the monster book uses different assumptions make sure to spell them out in the intro!

For instance, the Mercenary example in the Monster Overhaul is decent, since they're not so fantastic that a lot of work needs to be done just to give us, the reader, an idea of what mercenaries might be like.

Using the Monster
This is an area where I think 5e has done pretty badly, and I would say most versions of D&D and D&D-clones aren't too good at it. This includes some of the stuff @Leatherhead brings up - suggestions for how to plug an encounter with that monster into your game without only revolving around the combat stat block. ENWorld's A5E does a decent job at this, I'd reckon.

For instance, the Mercenary example in the Monster Overhaul is decent. I don't care for the way the random tables don't appear to have any relationship to any of the text on the rest of the page - I'm assuming, though, that there's another page in the spread missing that fills that particular gap.

Monster Stat Blocks
In general, I'm a fan of the 4e/5e stat block format, which basically gives you everything you need to run the monster in a combat encounter right on the spot. (I prefer the 4e and nouveau-5e style of not having to include digging through your PHB for spell descriptions, although the WotC implementation of the nouveau-5e style does leave a good deal to be desired.)

So, for instance, the Mercenary example in the Monster Overhaul is not a great stat block to my mind, since there's a huge gap between its "HD" line and the next actual game statistic line.



I tried to "walk the talk" with the 4e-like I'm working on at the moment. The thread is over here, but for convenience of reference, I'm reproducing the monster pages in this thread. The monster is the aboleth Deep One, which will likely be one of the most complicated monster stat blocks.

The lore page (which will probably either be in a two-page spread with a full-page picture or with the gameplay page):
View attachment 312218

The gameplay page:
View attachment 312217

The stat block page:
View attachment 312216

If the gameplay and stat block pages are on the same two-page spread, then, in theory, everything you need at minimum to run the monster on the spot is right there at a glance when you open up the monster book, with the lore on the previous two-page spread for when you want to refer to it. The lore includes ecology, lairs, and even a "choose your own lore" element.

The Deep One's stat block also reinforces the brief snippet on its tactical behaviour: it (1) tries to daze or sicken opponents to leave them vulnerable to (2) its attempts to dominate them, and then (3) if that succeeds it can bring them permanently under its control. This three-step process also gives player characters time to try to stop it! It also has off-turn actions it can take that either reinforce why fighting one in its lair is dangerous or reinforce why it always wants to fight with thrall allies.
That's a really good monster entry (if there was art). I think the statblock could use some work, but the general concept is pretty great!

PS - I know the statblock is based on 4e statblocks, I made a lot of 4e monsters in the past! The organization could be improved IMO.
 
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dave2008

Legend
Two books.

One book is nothing but stats, for as many monsters as the designers can think of and each statted up in as brief and efficient a manner as possible. Each write-up includes a line or two (maximum!) on tactics, morale, etc. Should be able to get several monsters per page for the simple ones, and at absolute most a full page for a complex monster. Don't bother with art, it just takes up space that could be better used to write up more monsters. Ideally this book is for DMs only; perhaps titled something like "DM's Guide: Monsters".

The other book, covering the more commonly-seen monsters plus some iconic and unusual ones, is all lore all the time. Here's where the art goes, along with the lore, backstory, and everything else except the stats...and as there's no stats, you've got more page space to delve into the lore etc. Players can freely read this one without worry about their learning too much about the numbers.
I think that is an interesting idea, but I don't think it would sell that well. I know I would be unlikely to buy a monster book without art. I might but it digitally for copy paste use, but never a hard copy.
 

Sacrosanct

Legend
I think that is an interesting idea, but I don't think it would sell that well. I know I would be unlikely to buy a monster book without art. I might but it digitally for copy paste use, but never a hard copy.
What I did with Twilight Fables (and will make standard practice going forward), is to provide an RTF text-only file with all copies. That way people can easily cut and paste whatever info they want out of it.
 

Quickleaf

Legend
TBH I find the attitude expressed by @Clint_L to be sort of presuming that monster write-ups should be written with a specific kind of DM in mind - a DM who (a) is experienced and (b) wants to have a bunch of their own lore rather than the default. This is something I can't agree with.

If you (general you) want monsters to have their own lore at your own table, you can already do that.

But a new DM, or a DM who doesn't want to have to come up with a bunch of lore, shouldn't have to. There should be enough detail to "plug and play" a monster both in and out of combat at the very least. More intelligent monsters will necessarily require more write-up than, say, animal-like predators. Monster write-ups for specific settings can be more detailed.

Overall
I prefer a single monster to a page, with maybe a two-page spread for more significant monsters. If a single monster is getting more page count than that, it should be for lore, random tables, and maybe a variant stat block. If you're using a large font size, you might have to go to a two-page-spread per monster across the board.

Also, the entire description, both lore and stat block, should be focused towards using the monster in play. If page count permits, more lore can be provided that is not "play-focused", but if you've got maybe one column, or part of a column, you need to make the most of it.

I should say I'm quite partial to the designs that @Sacrosanct has posted. I don't care for the way the Hacklopedia uses all those paragraphs - I'd prefer bullet points, myself - but I'm not prepared to opine on the content proper since I can't read it.

Monster Lore
If you're inexperienced or don't want to put in the work to come up with a bunch of lore, the monster lore should be sufficient to fit a monster into the "presumed default" setting for a game, such as a "kitchen sink" fantasy setting in the case of core book 5e. If the monster book uses different assumptions make sure to spell them out in the intro!

For instance, the Mercenary example in the Monster Overhaul is decent, since they're not so fantastic that a lot of work needs to be done just to give us, the reader, an idea of what mercenaries might be like.

Using the Monster
This is an area where I think 5e has done pretty badly, and I would say most versions of D&D and D&D-clones aren't too good at it. This includes some of the stuff @Leatherhead brings up - suggestions for how to plug an encounter with that monster into your game without only revolving around the combat stat block. ENWorld's A5E does a decent job at this, I'd reckon.

For instance, the Mercenary example in the Monster Overhaul is decent. I don't care for the way the random tables don't appear to have any relationship to any of the text on the rest of the page - I'm assuming, though, that there's another page in the spread missing that fills that particular gap.

Monster Stat Blocks
In general, I'm a fan of the 4e/5e stat block format, which basically gives you everything you need to run the monster in a combat encounter right on the spot. (I prefer the 4e and nouveau-5e style of not having to include digging through your PHB for spell descriptions, although the WotC implementation of the nouveau-5e style does leave a good deal to be desired.)

So, for instance, the Mercenary example in the Monster Overhaul is not a great stat block to my mind, since there's a huge gap between its "HD" line and the next actual game statistic line.



I tried to "walk the talk" with the 4e-like I'm working on at the moment. The thread is over here, but for convenience of reference, I'm reproducing the monster pages in this thread. The monster is the aboleth Deep One, which will likely be one of the most complicated monster stat blocks.

The lore page (which will probably either be in a two-page spread with a full-page picture or with the gameplay page):
View attachment 312218

The gameplay page:
View attachment 312217

The stat block page:
View attachment 312216

If the gameplay and stat block pages are on the same two-page spread, then, in theory, everything you need at minimum to run the monster on the spot is right there at a glance when you open up the monster book, with the lore on the previous two-page spread for when you want to refer to it. The lore includes ecology, lairs, and even a "choose your own lore" element.

The Deep One's stat block also reinforces the brief snippet on its tactical behaviour: it (1) tries to daze or sicken opponents to leave them vulnerable to (2) its attempts to dominate them, and then (3) if that succeeds it can bring them permanently under its control. This three-step process also gives player characters time to try to stop it! It also has off-turn actions it can take that either reinforce why fighting one in its lair is dangerous or reinforce why it always wants to fight with thrall allies.
One touch I really like on your Deep One write up are the “Monster Signs” that a GM can use to foreshadow / hint at / build suspense for the monster. That’s a great inclusion!
 

Lanefan

Victoria Rules
I think that is an interesting idea, but I don't think it would sell that well. I know I would be unlikely to buy a monster book without art. I might but it digitally for copy paste use, but never a hard copy.
The art would be in the other book. The assumption is you'd buy both.
 



overgeeked

B/X Known World
For me, old-school D&D and its clones have nailed the monster presentation format.

DCC RPG is my favorite in this regard.

Screen Shot 2023-10-17 at 10.27.29 PM.png


That's everything you need to run that ghoul. Except the paralysis save. All you need is "DC 14 Will save or be paralyzed, unable to move or take any physical action for 1d6 hours" from the description and you're set. The full description is one paragraph of stats (above) and four paragraphs of text.

As much as I love D&D 4E's monster design, I don't need or want a stat block that takes up half a page.

I love the D&D 2E monster ecology and more in-depth descriptions, but I don't like the stat block format used. It eats up way too much room. Gimme the above condensed stat block and the better descriptions.

For me, art is extra. If you need art, make it black & white line art like old-school D&D and its clones. Again, DCC RPG is my favorite of them for this.

Old-School Essentials gets an honorable mention as it's very close to the top of my list.
 

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