Level Up (A5E) O5E Banishment Spell vs A5e

[TheDungeonMathster]

On the spell comparison document posted on this forum, it lists the changes to banishment as follows:

Banishment (4). Concentration random duration, target save per round with penalty, higher level increase duration instead of targets.

I sent this to one of my players and he had some salient points:

My knee jerk quick thoughts. (i) I think I would rather they start with a larger penalty that decreases the longer they're banished, (ii) having a save every round makes it worst than hypnotic pattern (an overturned 3rd level spell, in many cases), (iii) I like the idea of toning down the effect of banishment but I don't like the upcast changes.

I am curious about others thoughts on this. Did they weaken banishment too much or is there a thoughtful argument as to the design choices?

 

[PauloR]

I tend to agree with point I, decreasing penalties seem better for a spell that punishes you more, the longer you take to save against it. The upcast seems ok, as I find targeting more than one person with a powerfull spell like that a bit overpowered. Not sure about point II though. Perhaps if the penalty is big enough it will be better than the 3rd level "similar option"?

 

[Distracted DM]

Is the spell weakened, or is its purpose altered? It seems like it's much easier now to permanently remove an Outsider-type creature from an encounter, but the spell is less effective against a bandit due to a lessened and random duration.
My only complaint is that the DM has to track the duration, more work on our side of the screen

 

[W'rkncacnter]

Is the spell weakened, or is its purpose altered? It seems like it's much easier now to permanently remove an Outsider-type creature from an encounter, but the spell is less effective against a bandit due to a lessened and random duration.
My only complaint is that the DM has to track the duration, more work on our side of the screen

my response to this is if the change is intended to make it easier to permanently banish extraplanars, then the upcast makes no sense. why would you ever want to intentionally make it take longer to get rid of an extraplanar?

EDIT: i despise autocorrect with every fibre of my being.

 

[TheDungeonMathster]

Is the spell weakened, or is its purpose altered? It seems like it's much easier now to permanently remove an Outsider-type creature from an encounter, but the spell is less effective against a bandit due to a lessened and random duration.
My only complaint is that the DM has to track the duration, more work on our side of the screen

But the spell doesn't say it permanently removes any creature, unless I am reading the spell incorrectly.

Until the spell ends, a target native to your current plane is banished to a harmless demiplane and incapacitated. At the end of the duration the target reappears in the space it left (or the nearest unoccupied space). A target native to a different plane is instead banished to its native plane.

Is that last sentence meant to mean "permanently banished?"

Also I think the upcast benefit is not worth it. I almost feel as though it should have been written as, "The duration of banishment increases by 1d4 rounds for each slot level above 4th."

 

[W'rkncacnter]

Is that last sentence meant to mean "permanently banished?"

yes.
i mean, if they have a way to get back to the plane you banished them from, it won't stop that...but it'll leave them on their home plane when the spell ends. essentially, it's permanent in the sense that it's not undone when the spell ends.

 

[TheDungeonMathster]

yes.
i mean, if they have a way to get back to the plane you banished them from, it won't stop that...but it'll leave them on their home plane when the spell ends. essentially, it's permanent in the sense that it's not undone when the spell ends.

I am not challenging your statement, but do you have reference of the A5E team supporting this interpretation? I find it strange it was not explicitly stated in this way.

EDIT: Nevermind, that's the O5E interpretation as well. Sorry for my questioning.

 

[PauloR]

You do have a point though. Why is it that upcasting the spell makes it more  difficult to perma banish extraplanars? Maybe it could say at the end: "if a target is banished for 5 or more rounds to its home plane, it does not return when the spell ends". That would make permanently banishing an extraplanar without upcasting the spell very unlikely (which is good)

 

[noodohs]

You do have a point though. Why is it that upcasting the spell makes it more  difficult to perma banish extraplanars? Maybe it could say at the end: "if a target is banished for 5 or more rounds to its home plane, it does not return when the spell ends". That would make permanently banishing an extraplanar without upcasting the spell very unlikely (which is good)

It doesn't. Upcasting increases the duration, which has no affect on someone native to a different plane as they are just banished outright, or at least I could see that argument being made given how the spell is written. For example:
"If the spell ends before its maximum duration, the target reappears in the space it left (or the nearest unoccupied space) but otherwise a target native to a different plane doesn't return."

Why does it say "but otherwise?" I think the idea is that otherwise refers to the creatures origin, but grammatically it points to whether or not the spell hit its duration, which would read as "If the spell ends before its maximum duration, a target native to a different plane doesn't return." So I just end it early? If it hits the max duration, it returns? Or is it supposed to only be permanently banished if I maintain concentration until the end, which seems to be how o5e has it? Could definitely use some rewording here.

 

[W'rkncacnter]

It doesn't.

it does - the longer you need to concentrate on the spell, the more likely it is that you'll get interrupted by something else.

Upcasting increases the duration, which has no affect on someone native to a different plane as they are just banished outright, or at least I could see that argument being made given how the spell is written.

...what?

Why does it say "but otherwise?" I think the idea is that otherwise refers to the creatures origin,

why would it be that? that's why it specifies the creature's origin. the "but otherwise" doesn't have that purpose. it has a different one.

but grammatically it points to whether or not the spell hit its duration, which would read as "If the spell ends before its maximum duration, a target native to a different plane doesn't return."

...no, it'd read as "if the spell doesn't end before its maximum duration, a target native to a different plane doesn't return". that's why the "but otherwise" is there - to refer to what happens if the "if" clause is not fulfilled.

So I just end it early? If it hits the max duration, it returns? Or is it supposed to only be permanently banished if I maintain concentration until the end, which seems to be how o5e has it?

the third one.