D&D General What does the mundane high level fighter look like? [+]

[Dannyalcatraz]

In Queen of the Black Coast, Conan "one shots" double-digit were hyenas, with arrows, sword, sword pommel, bare hands, and by throwing one hard into the stairs:

And now from the shadows dark shapes came silently, swiftly, running low—twenty great spotted hyenas. Their slavering fangs flashed in the moonlight, their eyes blazed as no true beast's eyes ever blazed.​

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Twenty: then the spears of the pirates had taken toll of the pack, after all. Even as he thought this, Conan drew nock to ear, and at the twang of the string a flame-eyed shadow bounded high and fell writhing. The rest did not falter; on they came, and like a rain of death among them fell the arrows of the Cimmerian, driven with all the force and accuracy of steely thews backed by a hate hot as the slag-heaps of hell.​

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In his berserk fury he did not miss; the air was filled with feathered destruction. The havoc wrought among the onrushing pack was breathtaking. Less than half of them reached the foot of the pyramid. Others dropped upon the broad steps. Glaring down into the blazing eyes, Conan knew these creatures were not beasts; it was not merely in their unnatural size that he sensed a blasphemous difference. They exuded an aura tangible as the black mist rising from a corpse-littered swamp. By what godless alchemy these beings had been brought into existence, he could not guess; but he knew he faced diabolism blacker than the Well of Skelos.​

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Springing to his feet, he bent his bow powerfully and drove his last shaft point blank at a great hairy shape that soared up at his throat. The arrow was a flying beam of moonlight that flashed onward with but a blur in its course, but the were-beast plunged convulsively in midair and crashed headlong, shot through and through.​

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Then the rest were on him, in a nightmare rush of blazing eyes and dripping fangs. His fiercely driven sword shore the first asunder; then the desperate impact of the others bore him down. He crushed a narrow skull with the pommel of his hilt, feeling the bone splinter and blood and brains gush over his hand; then, dropping the sword, useless at such deadly close quarters, he caught at the throats of the two horrors which were ripping and tearing at him in silent fury. A foul acrid scent almost stifled him; his own sweat blinded him. Only his mail saved him from being ripped to ribbons in an instant. The next, his naked right hand locked on a hairy throat and tore it open. His left hand, missing the throat of the other beast, caught and broke its foreleg. A short yelp, the only cry in that grim battle, and hideously human-like, burst from the maimed beast. At the sick horror of that cry from a bestial throat, Conan involuntarily relaxed his grip.​

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One, blood gushing from its torn jugular, lunged at him in a last spasm of ferocity, and fastened its fangs on his throat—to fall back dead, even as Conan felt the tearing agony of its grip.​

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The other, springing forward on three legs, was slashing at his belly as a wolf slashes, actually rending the links of his mail. Flinging aside the dying beast, Conan grappled the crippled horror and, with a muscular effort that brought a groan from his blood-flecked lips, he heaved upright, gripping the struggling, rearing fiend in his arms. An instant he reeled off balance, its fetid breath hot on his nostrils, its jaws snapping at his neck; then he hurled it from him, to crash with bone-splintering force down the marble steps.​

There are no supernatural boons here, just mighty thews.

I have absolutely no problem with any of those as mundane. I don’t know why you’d think I would.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Even a vorpal sword doesn't allow you to decapitate everyone within 15' (unless you have the reach, number of attacks, and lucky rolls to make such an unlikely occurrence happen). Not really sure why you're bringing that into the conversation.

Someone else brought up vorpal weapons & arrows of slaying. I’m just saying those are explicitly not mundane.

I'm talking about things that are mundane. A skilled, real world person can one shot another person, right? That's a thing that happens. There's no need for magic to explain it. Hence, it is mundane. It's historically been restricted to magic in D&D, but there's no reason it needs to be that way.

All true. And, as I recall, every iteration of the rules has had nonmagical rules that allow such to happen.

They’ve also had explicitly magical ways to do likewise- sometimes more dependably- but not mutually exclusive. A high-level fighter capable of cutting down all of the 1/2HD critters within arm’s reach can also use a vorpal sword.

You could totally give fighters the ability to one shot opponents. You'd need some limitations to keep it in check, but there's no justification for preventing a fighter from doing so on the basis that they're mundane.

I’m NOT.

What I’m saying is there’s an upper limit on how powerful a being a warrior should be able one-shot by purely mundane means, without supernatural aid*. What that limit should be is a matter of opinion & game design.




* or, as mentioned, a prophecy/curse, etc. In a sense, a prophecy is a chink in the armor. Baldur was immune to being killed by any weapon…except for a completely mundane shaft of mistletoe.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

I'm a bit curious what the sticking point is. Is it the radius, the decapitation, or both?

The radius. That’s well outside the reach of someone armed with a sword and surrounded by foes.

If the warrior in question had a reach weapon letting him strike foes 15’ away, I’d be fine with that, but maybe nothing over 20-25’ away.

(I can even accept a mundane warrior still being able to strike down those closer in, unlike the standard reach rules.)

Like decapitation has historically been a reasonably common result of melee martial combat using medieval weaponry. 15' is perhaps a bit much for a simple spinning attack with something like a sword, but with some footwork, it seems like an area someone could cover without enormous trouble. Maybe 10' is more reasonable?

Looking at a battle map (squares, not hexes), 32 creatures fit in a 15’ radius, more if you measure from a character’s square in the middle. So yeah, that’s a bit much.

And moreover, have we found a particular use case for an "arrow through axehandles" martial feat such that it should be a relevant benchmark for comparison.

It’s an example of extreme, but not necessarily supernatural accuracy, akin to marksmen doing ricochet shots and likewise.

 

[Tony Vargas]

The radius. That’s well outside the reach of someone armed with a sword and surrounded by foes.

FWIW, even tho it's a turn-based game, the character does have, in concept 6 seconds to perform his maneuver, and isn't actually rooted to the spot.

If you think the latter qualifies as mundane, we’ll never reach accord on a mundane warrior design.

That's the second time you've thrown down that particular gauntlet.

I'm saying, "mundane" ain't even in it. Mundane is the commoner farming. Adventuring, itself, is not mundane. There's a vast excluded middle between mundanity and the supernatural.

 

[Gammadoodler]

If we're gonna get pedantic, no, it's actually wasn't Did it happen? Yes. But rarely. Almost impossible if the target was wearing armor. There's a reason why executioners wielded giant heavy curved swords or axes. Not to get grisly, but it takes a few hacks with a normal sword or hand axe to chop a head off when the other person is trying to stop you.

I mean if we're getting pedantic, I said 'reasonably common'. Alligators and snakes are reasonably common in Florida but it doesn't mean you see one every day. It just means that, when you do see one, you don't wonder what sorcery got the creature into your swimming pool.

The point was that it is well within mundane capabilities, especially for an heroic warrior within a fantasy context.

 

[Gammadoodler]

The radius. That’s well outside the reach of someone armed with a sword and surrounded by foes.

If the warrior in question had a reach weapon letting him strike foes 15’ away, I’d be fine with that, but maybe nothing over 20-25’ away.

(I can even accept a mundane warrior still being able to strike down those closer in, unlike the standard reach rules.)

Looking at a battle map (squares, not hexes), 32 creatures fit in a 15’ radius, more if you measure from a character’s square in the middle. So yeah, that’s a bit much.

It’s an example of extreme, but not necessarily supernatural accuracy, akin to marksmen doing ricochet shots and likewise.

Is it better if the ability describes some amount of movement to accompany it?

E.g: With a bust of speed you strike down this within your immediate surroundings, make a melee strike upon every enemy within a 15 foot radius,

or somesuch?

 

[Aldarc]

Is it possible that a high level mundane fighter in D&D would have a mix of preternatural combat prowess and magic items?

 

[Fanaelialae]

Someone else brought up vorpal weapons & arrows of slaying. I’m just saying those are explicitly not mundane.

All true. And, as I recall, every iteration of the rules has had nonmagical rules that allow such to happen.

They’ve also had explicitly magical ways to do likewise- sometimes more dependably- but not mutually exclusive. A high-level fighter capable of cutting down all of the 1/2HD critters within arm’s reach can also use a vorpal sword.

I’m NOT.

What I’m saying is there’s an upper limit on how powerful a being a warrior should be able one-shot by purely mundane means, without supernatural aid*. What that limit should be is a matter of opinion & game design.




* or, as mentioned, a prophecy/curse, etc. In a sense, a prophecy is a chink in the armor. Baldur was immune to being killed by any weapon…except for a completely mundane shaft of mistletoe.

To the best of my recollection, D&D hasn't ever had official rules for warriors non-magically one-shotting anyone in any edition. Unless you count reducing the enemy to 0 HP via standard attacks, and then simply narrating the attack as such. It's always been relegated to magic (Vorpal sword, sword of sharpness, SoD spells, etc).

It certainly doesn't officially exist in 5e (outside of magic).

 

[Minigiant]

One One Shoting:

Should a level 15 fighter be able to one shot a CR 2 ogre?

If yes, a 5e ogre has 59 HP.

Should a level 15 fighter deal 60 damage a turn or 60 damage per attack.

Because I think a level 15 fighter should be able to kill 2 ogres a turn.

Note: an ogre is CR 2.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

I don't understand anything anymore here.

Oh no! I'll try to help, I think this is my fault!

How does 4e Minions feel like some novel form of D&D "cheating" or "artificial" when (a) the rules are right there in front of you (so the decision-tree you're interacting with is robust and entirely transparent such that tactical and strategic choice is preserved...where is the "cheating"?) and (b) we've had various brands of HD related "mook-gating rules" forever with AD&D 1e's Fighter, Paladin, Ranger vs less than 1 HD creatures and 2e's Heroic Fray rules (which both were derived from Chainmail) and the Sleep and Prismatic Spray spells and plenty of other things that don't just pop off the top of my head I'm sure.

Of course there is no actual "cheating", but the system is setting up easily killable stooges for me to slay so it will never feel particularly satisfying or earned.

Let's have an example. At early levels characters encounter a bunch of monsters of certain type. They have a tough fight, are badly beaten and barely manage to escape alive. Perhaps even one of the characters dies. Later in the campaign when the characters are higher level, they encounter the same monsters again. Oh no! But this time they defeat them with ease! The characters have become more powerful!

Now the fiction was system agnostic, but do you think the system being used would affect the players' perception of the situation?
Option 1) The monsters use the same statblocks both times.
Option 2) The monsters use statblocks with full hit points at the first time, but have only one hit point the second time.

Because to me it would matter, and I seriously doubt I'm remotely alone in this. With the option one it would actually feel we're beating the same monsters that were such a menace earlier and the victory would feel earned, with option two it wouldn't feel we're really fighting the same enemies and the GM is just giving us the win because they've decided this is the narrative they want to have here.

I guess I'm just one of those "Usual Suspects," right? Yeah, the kind that (a) likes information worked off of to be somewhere approaching accurate/correct and with context (not misrepresented or improperly reduced) and (b) likes standards to be closer to organized around first principles than they are to being wholly arbitrary (while simultaneously tacitly representing that someone's feels are outgrowths of objective properties of something rather than idiosyncratic to the user and their particular cohort).

I don't want rules to be arbitrary. But to me the same (or similar) fictional entity being represented by completely different stablocks depending on GM’s whims is hella arbitary. The first principle I want, is the rules to represent the fictional reality, and that requires consistency. Otherwise we have just arbitrary rules and numbers that do not really represent anything, and have no real connection to the fiction. I have no interest in that. YMMV and all that.