D&D General What does the mundane high level fighter look like? [+]

[Crimson Longinus]

The problem is that you keep ignoring what they're there for an insist they do things they aren't meant to do.

They're not there for realism, they're not there to represent some naturalistic state of a monster. They're there to serve a narrative purpose.

I get that. But I don't want that, and how well 4e went, I doubt most people do. I could be wrong, it could be that over the years the playerbase and alongside it the tastes have changed sufficiently that it would now be palatable. But I don't think it is likely.

And in any case if a similar effect was desired, it has already demonstrated in this thread how it could be done without the associated issues.

 

[Vaalingrade]

Whichever had the real hit points.

There are not real hit points!

Hit points are not real. They are a game element. They mean nothing in-universe. They are a count down to narrative defeat an nothing more forever

But you're contradicting yourself. You said it was not about beating about tough monsters, but now it again is. So which is it?

I said it's about them being nothing to you. They may look big and bad, but now they dive in droves at your hands. They are not tough. That is the point. Kobolds are NEVER tough. Even Tucker's kobolds require god to cheat for them. Beating them up is the stuff of children's parties and activity night at the senior center. They cannot serve the same purpose as minionizing something that matters in combat.

And minions still matter. They can still hurt you. They only differ from other monsters in the ease in which they are dispatched. A fireball clears them. A good fighter would walk through them, leaving a trial of corpses. A good rogue would be bouncing off them, slicing throats. A good ranger would stab one in the eye with an arrow, then fire that same arrow through three more at once.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

I said it's about them being nothing to you. They may look big and bad, but now they dive in droves at your hands. They are not tough. That is the point. Kobolds are NEVER tough. Even Tucker's kobolds require god to cheat for them. Beating them up is the stuff of children's parties and activity night at the senior center. They cannot serve the same purpose as minionizing something that matters in combat.

Right. So you want to feel you beat powerful foes without them actually being powerful. To me this seems contradictory.

 

[Vaalingrade]

I get that. But I don't want that, and how well 4e went, I doubt most people do.

Or people don't like a game that was unsupported by 3PP, that failed to deliver its flagship VTT, and ultimately they were grossly misinformed about by a faction that was sad their wizard wasn't speshul. But no, I'm sure it was the minions. Little yellow jerks.

And in any case if a similar effect was desired, it has already demonstrated in this thread how it could be done without the associated issues.

It has not. The 'solution' to use lower CR monsters misses the whole point of minions in the first place and worse, was one of the excuses for the ugly rise of bounded accuracy.

 

[Tony Vargas]

Hit points are not real. They are a game element. They mean nothing in-universe. They are a count down to narrative defeat an nothing more forever

They're abstract. They're "dissociated" or whatever. But, you can imagine them how you like. FWIW.
Like, if you dislike a mechanic that touches on hp, you can imagine it in a way you find distasteful, and demand it be excised from the game.

And by 'multiple'..I assume we mean that the fighter can take down..2..with action surge and spending resources? Maybe a third if they score a lucky crit and positioning works out?

The 12th level 5 fighter has his 2nd Extra Attack (since 11th) and can hit 3 times per round. He probably doesn't do a standard-issue 5e Ogre's 59 hp in one hit, it might take 2 or all three, IDK, there's no assumption of magic items or feats, so there's a range of possibilities....

And by level 20, 8 levels later, that fighter can take down maybe...4 ogres with action surge and resource expenditure? Maybe a 5th with a crit (though good luck getting 5 large creatures positioned such that a Fighter can get to all of them in a turn)

In 5e you can move-attack-move-attack some more - everyone can, from 1st level, even.

So some classes get access to more and/or better spells every level up. Fighters get the ability to maybe kill one additional CR 2 monster a turn every...4 levels?

5th, 11th, and 17th IIRC.

But no, I'm sure it was the minions. Little yellow jerks.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

It has not. The 'solution' to use lower CR monsters misses the whole point of minions in the first place and worse, was one of the excuses for the ugly rise of bounded accuracy.

No, not that. I meant making the ability to insta-slay lower level monsters a player side feature like @Quickleaf suggested. (And I made an example of similar ability earlier, though I think Quickleaf's formulation of the idea is better.)

 

[Baron Opal II]

If the fighter's minimum damage is equal to the monster's average hit points, they are effectively minions without minion rules.

 

[Vaalingrade]

Right. So you want to feel you beat powerful foes without them actually being powerful. To me this seems contradictory.

Okay. Please stop and look at what I am typing instead of what you want me to be typing to prove your point.

The satisfaction of beating a tough foes is in putting in the work and tactics to make it happen. I'm told this is the attraction of Souls-like games.

The satisfaction of minions is beating foes that used to be tough to you but which are now at your mercy. This is the appeal of Devil May Cry for example.

They are different things.

 

[Baron Opal II]

View attachment 320698

I am certain they have more than 1 hp.

 

[Vaalingrade]

If the fighter's minimum damage is equal to the monster's average hit points, they are effectively minions without minion rules.

What about everyone else?

I know we talk about the fighter, but this excludes the rest of the party.

We have to care about their fun too. We are not wizards for gods' sake.