D&D 4E Ben Riggs' "What the Heck Happened with 4th Edition?" seminar at Gen Con 2023

[teitan]

No. We WERE bothered by many of the changes and the fact that some of the structure and math made it through to 5e only means that there were some changes that were palatable - you really need to stop claiming what and how we felt at the time.. And 5e was pretty up front with much of what was going on and with engagement with fans. Remember all those monster surveys? And the broad public play test that put a lot of the changes out for us to see? The behavior of WotC in the run-up to 5e was very different from 4e - they had been burned by the 4e experience and went looking for more of basics that kept us in D&D in the first place. The interaction was less "we're redesigning everything" and more "what does D&D mean to you?".

You were bothered. You don't and are unable to speak for everyone.

 

[teitan]

Making a math mistake isn’t a transparency issue though. It’s simply a math mistake. Stupid mistake, sure. But again, that doesn’t really counter what I’m saying.



When is the last time anyone from WotC said anything publicly that wasn’t vetted through marketing? They used to do it all the time. Hell there were WotC people who posted regularly here on En World.

Constantly? Dec 2022-Jan 2023? February 23 when they were trying to walk back and Kyle Brink got raked over the coals for an out of context quote and continues to be? The people who posted here constantly started posting after they left WOTC or very, very much tried to disclaimer themselves if they still worked there, which were very few.

 

[billd91]

You were bothered. You don't and are unable to speak for everyone.

Context should have made it VERY clear I was talking about people who didn't like 4e, not the people who did.

 

[darjr]

Making a math mistake isn’t a transparency issue though. It’s simply a math mistake. Stupid mistake, sure. But again, that doesn’t really counter what I’m saying.


WotC was being as clear and open about what they were trying to do as they could be. They were straight up saying that they thought x was a better idea than y. There was very little burying the lede going on.

And that openness got them crucified. No matter what they said, people pulled single points (don’t talk to gate guards, cloud watching - for example) and just went to town.

To the point where ten years later, people are STILL misquoting stuff and grinding those same stones.

When is the last time anyone from WotC said anything publicly that wasn’t vetted through marketing? They used to do it all the time. Hell there were WotC people who posted regularly here on En World.

Now? Everything is kept very much at a remove. Zero direct interaction. Yup we’ve got these great playtests where they chuck out new ideas, the fandom rejects them and we get to keep on going on.

We got the DnD that we demanded.

Those WotC folks that were posting here during 4e at ENWorld were, I think, marketing people.

And I guess I didn’t talk to anyone at Gameholecon. Nope, ghosts.

 

[hawkeyefan]

But if they didn‘t listen to anybody, would it have a market beyond themselves? Would a corporation employ them to make it? And I can tell you, if they did, it almost certainly wouldn’t be D&D since that property involves certain responsibilities that a group of designers making “whatever floats their boat“ aren’t fulfilling.

I don't think I care anymore about the specific label of "D&D" and what that means. I just prefer a good game.

 

[Hussar]

Those WotC folks that were posting here during 4e at ENWorld were, I think, marketing people.

And I guess I didn’t talk to anyone at Gameholecon. Nope, ghosts.[/QUOTE]

Chris Perkins? Mike Mearls? I’m sure there were others.

And yes. I do realize that the tiny percentage of gamers who make the trek out to a con get to meet with the devs. Not quite what I was talking about but sure.

Hell this thread was spawned by a con presentation.

 

[darjr]

I don't think I care anymore about the specific label of "D&D" and what that means. I just prefer a good game.

Great! There are a ton of them out there.

 

[darjr]

Those WotC folks that were posting here during 4e at ENWorld were, I think, marketing people.

And I guess I didn’t talk to anyone at Gameholecon. Nope, ghosts.

Chris Perkins? Mike Mearls? I’m sure there were others.

And yes. I do realize that the tiny percentage of gamers who make the trek out to a con get to meet with the devs. Not quite what I was talking about but sure.

Hell this thread was spawned by a con presentation.

Read the thread, people here have made that claims of Mike.

And they knew who I was. Or at least I’d make public posts about things said.

 

[Imaro]

I don't think I care anymore about the specific label of "D&D" and what that means. I just prefer a good game.

But there are already numerous ttrpg's that aren't D&D...

 

[teitan]

Context should have made it VERY clear I was talking about people who didn't like 4e, not the people who did.

And again you don’t speak for everyone. You speak for a minority.