What's Your "Sweet Spot" for a Skill system?

Right, but then it is questionable to draw the odds of failure from a value representing the character’s skill, if that failure doesn’t manifest as them doing badly. In such approach a character with low skill is not actually any more unskilled than ones with a high skill, they are just merely inexplicably more prone to causally unrelated bad stuff happening when they attempt to employ the skill.
Those numbers don't represent skill or ability. They represent how likely things are to go well for you when you test those things. It's like the "Discern Realities" move in Dungeon World. Being good at it doesn't make you more likely to see what's there. If it's important the MC will tell you when it's important. Being good at it makes you more likely to get more answers when you make the Move.
 

log in or register to remove this ad

Thourne

Hero
Right, but then it is questionable to draw the odds of failure from a value representing the character’s skill, if that failure doesn’t manifest as them doing badly. In such approach a character with low skill is not actually any more unskilled than ones with a high skill, they are just merely inexplicably more prone to causally unrelated bad stuff happening when they attempt to employ the skill.
In some narrative games the dice rating indicates how important something is to the player to focus play on and has nothing to do with the character's competence.
 

pemerton

Legend
But that’s not what happened.

“I’d like to prepare some rations from those frogs we killed. Can I do that?”

“Sure, but it’d be risky in this dangerous area. How much do you want to try and make?”

“X amount.”

“Okay… that'll be an Ob 4 Cooking Test. If you fail, I’m introducing a Twist. Some bandits will discover your camp. Cool?”

“Yeah, cool. I’m gonna risk it.”

And there you go.
Here is the actual play report:

We started with Golin and Fea-bella lost in the Troll Fens. Fea-bella's player recounted a prologue, and removed Hungry and Thirsty. I then told them that in escaping from the tricksy Troll Haunt they had lost track of time and distance, but that now, as the sun rose (late in the morning due to the season and the mountains to the east), they could see the silhouette of a moathouse to the east. Golin took a drink to remove his own Hungry and Thirsty.

They decided to head to the Moathouse. This required a Pathfinder test to find their way through the mire, and Fea-bella failed this. So (as per my notes for approaching the Moathouse off the path) they found themselves attacked by giant killer frogs! In the ensuing kill conflict, the PCs did in the frogs with no loss of disposition on their part (they recovered their one lot hit point via Defend, and they cemented their kill when the last of the standing frogs opted to rout, and suffered an unopposed Attack action as a result). This conflict ticked over the Grind, making both character Hungry and Thirsty. They drank their remaining water.

They got a 2D chipped precious stone as their loot - at one point during the conflict I had narrated Fea-bella slashing a frog's tongue with her half-moon glaive, and I describe the stone as being embedded in the frog's tongue, as if it had tried to ensnare a well-dressed noble - but not food as such, and so I called for a Scavenging check to actually recover the bodies of the dead frogs. Which they did. And as they were collecting their frog meat, who should turn up but Telemere! (Whose player arrived late.) It turned out (as per the player's narration of his PC's absence and arrival) that in the dome of the Tower of Stars Telemere had seen a constellation and comet that he had not seen for decades, but he had sworn then to follow the signs if he ever saw it again (hence the character's Star-wise!). Thus he had left the Tower without explanation, and now arrived in this most unlikely of places! He eliminated Hungry and Thirsty (but remained Exhausted).

The PCs had amassed 4 camp checks at this stage, and so were going to use them. Fea-bella performed a Survivalist check to find fresh water in the swamp, helped by both the other PCs (Telemere's survivalist; Golin's Cook to help identify clean water). This failed, and so they found water but not before Fea-bella became Sick from testing some less-than-fresh water, with Telemere regaining Hungry and Thirsty as a consequence of his helping, and Golin becoming Afraid.

They then had to haul their recovered frogs to their camp site: Golin, helped by Fea-bella, failed, and so the hauling left them Hungry and Thirsty again. And so they made camp one turn short of more Grind. I decided that this was an Unsafe camp (being in the middle of the Troll Fens and not too far from the moathouse). They got a +1 for camping in the Wilderness (Telemere is a Ranger) but no one wanted to keep watch, as they all had conditions to recover: Fea-bella H+T, Exhausted and Sick; Golin H+T, Exhausted, Angry and Afraid; Telemere H+T and Exhausted. So the net modifier was -1 to the camp events roll. Which was a 7, -1 = 6: Wandering monsters - remain in adventure phase as camp ends with a stand off!

The wandering monster was a single Dire Wolf, which was trying to capture the PCs. The PCs succeeded in the conflict, and Golin captured the Wolf and bound it with his trusty rope; but a minor compromise was owed, and Telemere's bow was broken in the skirmish. (The fiction did establish that the Wolf had closed with him as he was trying to hold it off with his archery.) This made Telemere (and his player) very Angry, something consistent with the Grind ticking over. Fea-bella was Angry also, and Golin accrued the dreaded Sick.

They all took a sip from their camp's fresh water (thus eliminating H+T) while contemplating what to do with their bound Dire Wolf. They decided to bargain with it for service. Golin, who being a Shrewd Dwarven Outcast suffers no Precedence penalty when bargaining (and the Dire Wolf being Precedence 1 vs the PCs' zero), was conflict captain.

The PCs offered to free the Wolf, if it would join their party ("pack"); and were offering it plenty of frog to eat. As the Wolf explained in the common tongue, it wanted them to come with it to the Moathouse. The PCs succeeded, but owed a major compromise - the Wolf allied with them (and chowed down on frog), but they would go with it to the Moathouse.

They now camped. The Wolf took watch, but I decided that the danger level had stepped up from Unsafe to Dangerous (given that they were within Dire Wolf-tracking range of the Moathouse), so the modifier was still -1. The result was 9-1 = 8, Lost - "Lose your bearings while you rest. You must make a Pathfinder or Cartographer test to get back on track." As I narrated, their camp was in something of a hollow, and mists were rising off the swamp.

The PCs again drank water, to eliminate Hungry and Thirsty. Three checks were then spent for three successful recovery tests - all the PCs recovered from Angry. The fourth check was spent so that Golin could use frog meat to create preserved rations, but the test failed - and as Golin was getting ready to smoke the frog with his improvised cooking gear (all his real gear having been lost with his satchel while escaping from the Troll Haunt), the camp was approached by 3 bandits who demanded that the PCs surrender and come with them - a camp-ending twist!
I did not state the twist in advance; I hadn't decided on it in advance.

The players knew that they were close to the Moathouse: they had seen it in the distance; they knew the Dire Wolf had come from there; they had conversed with the Dire Wolf about some of its occupants, whom they knew not to be friendly; they knew that their proximity to the Moathouse, and having been found by the Wolf, raised the danger level when rolling for camp events.

The players chose not to spend a turn on the Grind, or a camp check, to find shelter or concealment; so they did not get that benefit to the camp event roll, nor did the fiction establish that they were in a concealed or sheltered place.

As I recall, both Fea-bella and Telemere helped Golin with this Cooking: Fea-bella with Alchemy (ie she knows how to handle pots over fires), and Telemere with Hunting (he knows something about the handling of game). Had Scout been used to help (eg reducing the smoke from the fire) and succeeded, that might have coloured the twist. But it wasn't.

The player spent some time deciding whether to go for Ob 3 (2 portions, improvised tools) or Ob 4 (4 portions, improvised tools) and opted for the latter. And he has played plenty of Burning Wheel, Torchbearer and Prince Valiant, and so is pretty familiar with the "twist" approach to narrating consequences.

When the roll failed, his response wasn't "Darn, I burned the frogs legs!" It was "Uh-oh, what is pemerton going to spring on us now?" Being familiar with the game procedure, and being immersed in the fiction, he was able to draw the logical conclusion that there might be some sort of swamp- and/or moathouse related interruption to camp.

Actually what happened seems to have been the player asking to make a cooking check to avoid attracting the bandits' attention.
This is not correct: see the actual play report above.

What happened at the table was the player rolled badly on a cooking check and the bandits appeared.
This is almost correct, as per the actual play report above. But it is not completely correct, because no bandits appeared at the table. We were not interrupted by anyone. What happened at the table was that the player rolled badly on a cooking check, and I (the GM) narrated the camping and cooking PCs being interrupted by the appearance of bandits at their camp.

At the table, the failed roll prompted me to narrate a twist that follows from the fiction - which I did.

In the fiction, the characters - camping in a swamp, not too far from the Moathouse, having little sense of their bearings, and trying to preserve frog meat with improvised gear (Golin's cooking gear having been cast off by him, with his satchel, while escaping a Troll Haunt) - were interrupted in their endeavours by bandits from the Moathouse.

The gameplay logic is quite straightforward - I've set it out in some detail.

The sequence of events in the fiction is quite straightforward - I've set it out in some detail.

The suggestion that this episode of play is illogical or incoherent is nonsense.
 


Laurefindel

Legend
The One Ring hits my sweet spot for skills.

A skill set tailored to the game/setting, and «common» skills separated from «combat» skills so that players won’t feel forced to double down on combat skills at the expense of everything else, or become skill monkeys at the cost of being complete rubbish in combat.

I like the execution mechanics, a d12 (really, a d10 plus two symbols but could as well be a simple d12 or d10) and a manageable number of d6. Look for total, stop counting when it exceeds the TN (which is written on your character sheet and is unlikely to change) because excess doesn’t matter. Look out for the symbols on the d12 (could as easily be 1 or 12) and 6s for degrees of success. Easy, quick, versatile. I like it.
 


aramis erak

Legend
It's at least as plausible to me that the Survival check involved the decision whether to cook.
Or where. Where to cook and how to cook to not draw attention are outside
Because the consequences aren't supposed to come from the characters being incompetent. Makes sense per what I've seen and read and played of these games which isn't a whole lot.
Burning Wheel and Torchbearer¹ both allow for incompetence, but advise for less drastic choices. But they also involve the players making an informed choice on whether the failure condition and difficulty are acceptable before the roll.

I'd see no issue with survivalist² skill -- making a cookfire that doesn't attract attention -- but making test on cooking does not follow, and in such, I'd have complained. Because, in BWHQ games, players other than the one rolling do have a right to comment.



¹: And Burning Empires and Mouse Guard.
²: the actual name for the skill in the preorder PDF; my hardcover is stored at the moment.
 


niklinna

satisfied?
That's because you're looking at it backward. If you were calling for a test to see if the PCs could avoid drawing the attention of bandits known to be in the area would the first skill you called for be cooking?
I would not (by default), because that would be backward. If the players' main intent is to avoid drawing the attention of bandits, they need to do something narratively relevant to that. I can see some wacky player deciding to cook up a tasty meal to bribe/appease bandits, but not to avoid drawing their attention in the first place.

If the players decide to cook for whatever reason, knowing that bandits are in the area and therefore narratively relevant to just about any activity they might undertake, they should not be surprised when a negative result on the skill check involves having inadvertently drawn the attention of the bandits, rather than something boring like merely having burned the frog meat (although loss of needed supplies is indeed a valid negative consequence).
 

niklinna

satisfied?
But that’s not what happened.

“I’d like to prepare some rations from those frogs we killed. Can I do that?”

“Sure, but it’d be risky in this dangerous area. How much do you want to try and make?”

“X amount.”

“Okay… that'll be an Ob 4 Cooking Test. If you fail, I’m introducing a Twist. Some bandits will discover your camp. Cool?”

“Yeah, cool. I’m gonna risk it.”

And there you go.
No that's not what happened, but the question was, what if the situation was that the players' foremost and overt goal was to avoid drawing the bandits' attention? What is your answer to that? (Mine is just above.)
 

Remove ads

Top