D&D 3E/3.5 Edition Experience - Did/Do you Play 3rd Edtion D&D? How Was/Is it?

[Deset Gled]

The animated dead example given by @GrimCo doesn't seen particularly broken to me. In addition to the reasons @rabindranath72 gave, it has a lot of other limitations. For starters, it's useful to do in a "home base" scenario but is much harder to use when actually adventuring. Also, it's relatively easy to counter. Another Cleric can turn the undead (or even Rebuke them to fight against you). Any caster with an AoE spell, or even a Fighter with Great Cleave could wreak havoc on the small army. Compared to the non-core things that people use as examples of "broken" builds, this just doesn't seem scary. All things considered, I would be more scared of this tactic as an over-tedious one rather than an over-powered one.

Frankly, I was expecting someone to come up with a CoDzilla build to show broken-ness, not a wizard.

 

[Voadam]

The animated dead example given by @GrimCo doesn't seen particularly broken to me. In addition to the reasons @rabindranath72 gave, it has a lot of other limitations. For starters, it's useful to do in a "home base" scenario but is much harder to use when actually adventuring. Also, it's relatively easy to counter. Another Cleric can turn the undead (or even Rebuke them to fight against you) Any caster with an AoE spell, or even a Fighter with Great Cleave could wreak havoc on the small army. Compared to the non-core things that people use as examples of "broken" builds, this just doesn't seem scary. All things considered, I would be more scared of this tactic as an over-tedious one rather than an over-powered one.

Frankly, I was expecting someone to come up with a CoDzilla build to show broken-ness, not a wizard.

A typical one is comparing a mid to high level fighter to a cleric. A fighter is generally better than a cleric at weapons combat because of a better BAB, 1 hp/level more than a cleric, martial weapons instead of mostly simple ones, and bonus feats. They are however more defensively vulnerable to will saves. They have a different list of class skills with the same low end two skill points per level.

With divine power, a 4th level cleric spell, a cleric for 1 round per level gains the fighter BAB, gains a 1 temp hp per level to get up to fighter hp, and a +6 enhancement bonus to strength, leaving a fighter to still have an advantage of their bonus feats and the cleric opportunity cost of the casting time of the spell and the slot.

Divine power can stack with other core cleric spells like divine favor (luck bonuses to weapon attacks) and righteous might (size large, DR, and size bonuses to stats) for really spiking a cleric's martial buffs.

So clerics can buff up to surpass fighters at weapons fighting with some spells, at a cost of using some spell slots and casting time, and are behind fighters without buffing but still fairly decent, particularly at being heavy armor front line types to protect squishy back line party members.

Fighters however can not similarly really spike their weapons fighting or even dabble into any of the cleric's non weapon fighting areas. They can not heal, buff, divine, magically attack, or turn undead. They have a few combat bonus feats as their big enhancement.

 

[Deset Gled]

A typical one is comparing a mid to high level fighter to a cleric...

I'm not really going to agree or disagree with this, because it sounds more like discussion of balance (and party roles, and length of the day, etc). It is a good analysis that shows that the Cleric can do a good job of being the tank.

But it doesn't show me that the PHB Cleric is "broken". At least nowhere near the levels the splatbooks got to, with things like Divine Metamagic, Dweomerkeeper, etc.

YMMV.

 

[Voadam]

But it doesn't show me that the PHB Cleric is "broken". At least nowhere near the levels the splatbooks got to, with things like Divine Metamagic, Dweomerkeeper, etc.

I am not clear on where your line is for broken stuff here.

What are the specific examples of Divine Metamagics and Dweomerkeeper as broken? Quicken spell metamagic with (x spell)? I am not sure what dweomerkeeper is.

I know persistent spell as a +4 metamagic in 3.0 Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting was really nice for making low level buffs last all day for mid to high level characters while the later adjustments to be +6 spell levels made it fairly unusable.

 

[GrimCo]

The animated dead example given by @GrimCo doesn't seen particularly broken to me. In addition to the reasons @rabindranath72 gave, it has a lot of other limitations. For starters, it's useful to do in a "home base" scenario but is much harder to use when actually adventuring. Also, it's relatively easy to counter. Another Cleric can turn the undead (or even Rebuke them to fight against you). Any caster with an AoE spell, or even a Fighter with Great Cleave could wreak havoc on the small army. Compared to the non-core things that people use as examples of "broken" builds, this just doesn't seem scary. All things considered, I would be more scared of this tactic as an over-tedious one rather than an over-powered one.

Frankly, I was expecting someone to come up with a CoDzilla build to show broken-ness, not a wizard.

It breaks game through action economy. LV5 Cleric can have 10 skeletons for paltry sum of 500 gp. Thats 10 2hd monsters with move and attack action each turn. While cleric still has his turn for casting something else or getting up close and personal. Plus your other party members ( including rogue with 10 additional friendlies for that sweet flanking bonus and sneak attack). Turn/rebuke is not that good since it runs on CHA which is usually dump stat for Clerics. Yes, fighter with Great Cleave can chop 2-3 of your minions. And that is one turn he used to not attack your wizard. AoE, same stuff. Trust me, i played enough games with both necromancer clerics and wizards in party (one usually raises cannon fodder, other raises more powerful creatures). Using grid and minis and exploiting terrain to gain good positioning you can use them to nice effect since commanding them what to do doesn't cost you. Also, you are describing scenario where you go against enemies with player classes. Usually PCs go against monsters.

If DM's first response is to limit access to spell component, than you know it's broken enough.

Wizards, high level at that, are broken enough as is. You don't really need to go for splatbook shenanigans.

Pets, summons, anything that gives you action economy advantage is at least somewhat broken.

 

[Thomas Shey]

Pets, summons, anything that gives you action economy advantage is at least somewhat broken.

Its not intrinsically so--after all you can have an Extra Critter that's so weak relative to its context that its irrelevant--but its very hard to get the balance point right so its worth something and not worth too much.

 

[haakon1]

*TVTropes has a rather extensive listing of D&D's sins

Agree with your comments, but that page is a hot mess of disorganized opinions.

Original Sin of the Internet, eh?

 

[haakon1]

Core as it gets. Cleric. Animate dead. Desecrate (not sure if it’s in PHB). Death domain. You can control up to 4HD of created undead per caster level. Animate dead is lv3 spell, so at that level, thats 20HD of undead. Sure, they are skeletons or zombies, but you have nice bunch of them as meat shields that screw up action economy.

I wouldn’t allow an evil cleric in the first place, but consequences for being a villain with a undead army would soon follow if this path were taken for long.

 

[haakon1]

Well magic markets are just an option. See the "Power components" variant, which I started using from day 0. If the DM says that black onyxes don't exist (or are very rare), then black onyxes don't exist (or are very rare.)
The Wealth by Level table is built on an assumption of averages; one could roll on the Treasure Tables and go well below average, or the DM can actually act as the DM and choose the amount of treasure to dole out, again like I have done from day 0. The game allows by design (see DMG p.164) low magic and high magic campaigns by explicit tweaking the amount of magic doled out (e.g. half or twice the WBL table entries.) In my games there have never been, nor there will ever be "junk piles" of magic items. I also use training rules to drain the PCs' coffers: they must always be kept hungry for more.

Sure neutral clerics could cast evil spells if the DM allowed appropriate deities, but again the DM is in control if he doesn't want some things at the table. Desecrate can still be useful even without undead minions.

If the DM wants, all the tools are there in the books to exert as much or as little control. The books tell us what's possible (which is near limitless), not what must happen at the table.

Perfect answer.

 

[haakon1]

Especially in late Tier 2 and above. Tier 4 characters glow like a Christmas tree with all the magic bling they need to be efficient against monsters of appropriate CR.

Isn’t the concept of Tiers from 4e?