D&D 5E [+]Exploration Falls Short For Many Groups, Let’s Talk About It

[Hussar]

Maybe it isn't impossible and there are things that live between dimensions that can sometimes get into a pocket dimension. Maybe the big spells have dangers and opportunities built in, that tie in with the general rules for exploration, laid out in the chapter on exploration in the PHB. Tasha’s also has expanded supernatureal terrain, and Bigby’s has places made to challenge higher level parties.

But that would be a huge change for the game- making magic unreliable. Mord's Mansion is 100% effective for what it does. There are no "random encounters" when you use it. Same as most of the magic in 5e D&D. Yes, we can keep trying to add "challenges" when the party uses Leomund's Hut or Goodberries or this or that or whatever. There are two problems with that though.

1. The casters are now driving the challenges of the game. We're not adding in random encounters that make sense for the adventure, we're adding in random encounters or events to counter using these spells. The only reason that these events are occuring is in response to the players using these spells. Which, at the end of the day, runs counter to why we use these spells in the first place. The whole point of using these spells was to avoid encounters and make resting safe.

2. And, I'm not sure getting into some sorts of magical arms race with the players is healthy. Well, the players now have resource X, Y and Z, so, we must up the challenges for exploration to match. It's essentially just a treadmill. Get stronger, face stronger opposition, get stronger... Again, the reason we're doing this is in response to the casters.

It's an arms race that I'm not interested in because it also has the knock on effect of making players realize that if they want to engage in the game, they have to play casters. Your fighter isn't going to be of much use traversing the Elemental Plane of Water, where you need things like Water Breathing, some sort of magic that gives you a swim speed and so on. All of that comes from the casters.

The tension between the magic system and exploration is very difficult to resolve.

 

[Hussar]

Trouble is, the vast majority of modern D&D players don't want the level of detail required for old-school exploration.

Dunno about the majority of players, but, this DM certainly has zero interest in that level of book keeping. Who do you think dumped those encumbrance rules? It wasn't the players.

 

[mamba]

The tension between the magic system and exploration is very difficult to resolve.

I am very much in favor of bringing magic down a notch or two, can only do the game good

 

[UngainlyTitan]

But that would be a huge change for the game- making magic unreliable. Mord's Mansion is 100% effective for what it does. There are no "random encounters" when you use it. Same as most of the magic in 5e D&D. Yes, we can keep trying to add "challenges" when the party uses Leomund's Hut or Goodberries or this or that or whatever. There are two problems with that though.

1. The casters are now driving the challenges of the game. We're not adding in random encounters that make sense for the adventure, we're adding in random encounters or events to counter using these spells. The only reason that these events are occuring is in response to the players using these spells. Which, at the end of the day, runs counter to why we use these spells in the first place. The whole point of using these spells was to avoid encounters and make resting safe.

2. And, I'm not sure getting into some sorts of magical arms race with the players is healthy. Well, the players now have resource X, Y and Z, so, we must up the challenges for exploration to match. It's essentially just a treadmill. Get stronger, face stronger opposition, get stronger... Again, the reason we're doing this is in response to the casters.

It's an arms race that I'm not interested in because it also has the knock on effect of making players realize that if they want to engage in the game, they have to play casters. Your fighter isn't going to be of much use traversing the Elemental Plane of Water, where you need things like Water Breathing, some sort of magic that gives you a swim speed and so on. All of that comes from the casters.

The tension between the magic system and exploration is very difficult to resolve.

No, the DM should not be getting into an arms race with the players, that way madness lies.

Ultimately this is a playstyle issue. It need table buy in and I am not sure that 5e is the game for it. I just think that a way to run clocks and some extended skill framework would do wonders for the game and not just in exploration.

I am very much in favor of bringing magic down a notch or two, can only do the game good

Not sure that this will be a thing, the reliability of spells in D&D nearly part of the core identity of the game now.

 

[I'm A Banana]

But ejecting all the utility spells rather than doing the work for DMs and players to make exploration different but just as engaging at higher levels, is a big nonstarter for me. I'm not ejecting magnificent mansion because if I don't I have to challenge the group differently because getting attacked while resting is basically impossible.

The magnificent mansion is a 7th level spell. It is not a small expenditure of resources!

I think of spells that remove exploration threats like that (like Arcane Eye, like Rope Trick, etc.) as analogous to casting fireball (or in the case of a bloody 7th-level slot, reverse gravity or plane shift or prismatic spray), or using Action Surge, or getting other 1/combat kind of abilities off. They are how you address the threat. You don't expect to be able to kill a beholder without casting a damaging spell or two. You similarly shouldn't expect to be able to explore the bloody cosmos at 14th level without spending a spell slot or two.

If a wizard wants to rest so badly that they'll spend a 7th-level slot to do it - one they didn't spend on any previous encounters - that's not a flaw. That's a sign that the party values rest enough. Or, maybe, that your wizard is playing pretty conservatively.

And the vast majority of players now refuse to have anything to do with resource management or that level of bookkeeping. They want more cinematic exploration. Which is where things like dramatic tests and skill challenges come in.

I don't think this is necessarily true. The resources you manage in a dungeon crawl in 5e are just hit points. Everyone manages HP. Because of how long rests work, I'd imagine exploration to challenge HP and HD, but this isn't substantially more than they're already managing.

Dramatic tests and skill challenges are only the framework, not the details. The referee needs to provide the details. If you remove the details and only care about the skill roll, you're doing it wrong.

Every system works perfectly with a perfect DM, yeah. But even with florid descriptions and engaged players, rolling a bunch of skill checks can feel pretty lackluster. It's like reducing a combat to a bunch of attack rolls and expecting the DM to provide the details. It'll work just fine, in a pinch (shout out if you were a Fighter in 2e, because this was basically your playstyle), but things like saving throws and area effects and movement and terrain and resource management all add to the complexity in a good way. They're desired, because combat should be interesting and more than just d20 rolls!

If you instead design your exploration like you're designing a dungeon, you are going to add nuance and variety. Traps and encounters and big reveals and impactful decisions. That's appealing complexity. If exploration is important, it should have that kind of appealing complexity.

 

[mamba]

Not sure that this will be a thing, the reliability of spells in D&D nearly part of the core identity of the game now.

I am not expecting this, agreed, that ship has sailed, It is still my opinion however

 

[Micah Sweet]

My point is that there is a segment of the community who doesn't want D&D to offer more options because they feel they know how to DM or play and more options would put an onus on them to justify their rulings over the official core rules or the official variations.

"My chart for X will be better than theirs so they shouldn't print theirs. IF they print theirs, people will come to the table expecting to use their over my superior one."

Doesn't help that TSR and WOTC had printed some stinkers over the years to bolster this belief.

Honestly, I don't feel that segment needs to be mollies by not presenting options. If they don't want 'em, they don't have to use 'em.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Hey, I'm not making the justification.
And the people who typically hold this position play the older versions of D&D or updated/cleaned variants of them.

But the DMG has an embarrassingly low amount of traps, few noncombat encounter tables, and no charts to roll to invent lore.
Imagine if you could roll on some Mad Libs "Secret lore" chart and learn "Hags used arcane magic to create goliaths out of bones"

I really object to this characterization. "OSR" and "rules light" are not synonyms, any more than "rules light" and "better-designed" are (despite what some people seem to think).

 

[Micah Sweet]

But that would be a huge change for the game- making magic unreliable. Mord's Mansion is 100% effective for what it does. There are no "random encounters" when you use it. Same as most of the magic in 5e D&D. Yes, we can keep trying to add "challenges" when the party uses Leomund's Hut or Goodberries or this or that or whatever. There are two problems with that though.

1. The casters are now driving the challenges of the game. We're not adding in random encounters that make sense for the adventure, we're adding in random encounters or events to counter using these spells. The only reason that these events are occuring is in response to the players using these spells. Which, at the end of the day, runs counter to why we use these spells in the first place. The whole point of using these spells was to avoid encounters and make resting safe.

2. And, I'm not sure getting into some sorts of magical arms race with the players is healthy. Well, the players now have resource X, Y and Z, so, we must up the challenges for exploration to match. It's essentially just a treadmill. Get stronger, face stronger opposition, get stronger... Again, the reason we're doing this is in response to the casters.

It's an arms race that I'm not interested in because it also has the knock on effect of making players realize that if they want to engage in the game, they have to play casters. Your fighter isn't going to be of much use traversing the Elemental Plane of Water, where you need things like Water Breathing, some sort of magic that gives you a swim speed and so on. All of that comes from the casters.

The tension between the magic system and exploration is very difficult to resolve.

Not really. Nerf or ban those spells.

POOF!

 

[Minigiant]

Honestly, I don't feel that segment needs to be mollies by not presenting options. If they don't want 'em, they don't have to use 'em.

I don't think you get it.

They don't want anyone to have them officially.
They don't want players to expect to use the official options.

There is a contingent who have years of experience on running exploration and don't want WOTC, Paizo, Kobold Press, ENPublishing or anyone else interfering with that.

I really object to this characterization. "OSR" and "rules light" are not synonyms, any more than "rules light" and "better-designed" are (despite what some people seem to think).

It's not about being rules light.

It's about having holes they believe only the DM should fill.
There are people who don't want players to ask them to use the optional ABC rules on page XYZ in the DMG.
And these fans are vocal and have influence in the community. That's why the exploration rules in the multiple games are detailed in some parts and bare in others. And why its always the same parts.