Why PCs should be competent, or "I got a lot of past in my past"

[Wolfpack48]

That's the same thing, though? Everything that happens in play is definitionally part of the story.

There's a difference between playing out a pre-defined story and taking actions in an adventure that create a story during play.

 

[aramis erak]

Yep. The current supers game that has most of my interest is the Sentinels Comics RPG. It has no "character advancement" in the classic sense.

If the character has gone through some stuff, and the player feels that should mean some mechanical changes, the players is directed back to the character generation system - you are okay to go back and remake your character as you see fit. But that won't entail a rise in outright power.

It does - every collection you get to rewrite and get one free reroll per session. That's very minimal, but not none. The rerolls are actually quite useful.

 

[Wolfpack48]

Sure. But, broadly speaking, we don't want the play experience to be forgettable, right? We want to generate those memories?

If the story is what we remember, and we want to generate the memories, it follows that we are looking to generate the story. That makes it more than a byproduct that we ignore, but part of the intended results of play.

Well, you play out actions that are hopefully interesting, but consciously trying to create a novel during play is self defeating. A good adventure will create a good story naturally rather than mechanistically.

 

[grankless]

There's a difference between playing out a pre-defined story and taking actions in an adventure that create a story during play.

Right, but nobody's talking about that? The story that happens during is built on what the players do in it. I'm asking what you mean by that not being story - do you think when peopel talk about making stories they're like, prewriting everything their characters do and then all share it? I'm truly trying to figure out what you mean by this first half of the sentence.

 

[Wolfpack48]

Right, but nobody's talking about that? The story that happens during is built on what the players do in it. I'm asking what you mean by that not being story - do you think when peopel talk about making stories they're like, prewriting everything their characters do and then all share it? I'm truly trying to figure out what you mean by this first half of the sentence.

I’m just saying play out the adventure with your character and don’t think or worry about what “story” you are creating or using fancy mechanisms to “create story” as you are adventuring. Just play the adventure and have fun. You can talk about what happened in the adventure as a “story” later. Being conscious of or mechanistically forcing story creation during play ironically detracts from creating a story.

 

[Maxperson]

And in any event, by the "Gandalf is a 5th level wizard" argument that we should always accept the lowest level that explains what we actually see in the story, no one in the crew is more than 3rd level. Wash and Kaylee might well be henchmen NPCs with Expert class. Shephard and Inara are probably run by the DM. And yes, what happens in the series suggests Mal, River and Jayne are above 1st level or that we are using a system that assumes starting PCs are a couple levels of competence above "normal people", but the set up itself is perfectly valid for 1st level characters with no important changes in backstory.

Gandalf can't be a 5th level wizard. In the hobbit he casts 3 lightning bolts in rapid succession and in the lord of the rings he casts several fireballs on Weathertop. That would make him a minimum of 6th to 8th level depending on the edition. Higher level if he cast more than 3 fireballs on Weathertop, which I think he did.

 

[Celebrim]

Gandalf can't be a 5th level wizard. In the hobbit he casts 3 lightning bolts in rapid succession and in the lord of the rings he casts several fireballs on Weathertop. That would make him a minimum of 6th to 8th level depending on the edition. Higher level if he cast more than 3 fireballs on Weathertop, which I think he did.

a) Gandalf never casts fireball. Close reading of the text is that Gandalf can set things on fire (by commanding them to burn) but cannot summon fire out of the air. While the 'fireball' has its origin in Gandalf, like many of the things inspired by LotR in D&D it's not a good implementation of Gandalf's actual abilities.
b) Gandalf has an elven ring of power equivalent to a Ring of Elemental Command (Fire) and a Staff of Power (the origin of the D&D 'retributive strike' ability appears to be Tolkien - 'You shall not Pass.').
c) Gandalf's encounter with the Ring Wraiths on Weathertop is not shown in the text, and we cannot therefore state with any precision what spells he used. It's been a while since I read the text of 'The Hobbit' but since I have read it 36 times I think I can go from memory that Gandalf tells Beorn that he cast "a lightning bolt". I don't remember either multiple lightning bolts in chapter were it happens or Gandalf's recounting of it. The only other 3rd level spell he uses after that in the text is "pyrotechnics" which he casts in the goblin Great Hall, and after that he noticeably stops casting spells until after Bilbo's escape the next day and fights with his sword.
d) Personally, I believe Gandalf is probably a 6th level wizard and you are correct that 6th level is more accurate of an assessment than 5th level, but also I believe that Gandalf isn't just a 6th level wizard. However, it's not outside of the text that he could be a 5th level wizard with a magical staff and a powerful ring. Personally, I believe that he is a 6th level wizard with a magic staff and a powerful ring, but also that in 1e AD&D terms his race is Agathion which explains why despite being similar level to the other heroes he's a much more puissant individual. In 3e terms, he's a +LA race.

 

[Maxperson]

a) Gandalf never casts fireball. Close reading of the text is that Gandalf can set things on fire (by commanding them to burn) but cannot summon fire out of the air. While the 'fireball' has its origin in Gandalf, like many of the things inspired by LotR in D&D it's not a good implementation of Gandalf's actual abilities.
b) Gandalf has an elven ring of power equivalent to a Ring of Elemental Command (Fire) and a Staff of Power (the origin of the D&D 'retributive strike' ability appears to be Tolkien - 'You shall not Pass.').
c) Gandalf's encounter with the Ring Wraiths on Weathertop is not shown in the text, and we cannot therefore state with any precision what spells he used. It's been a while since I read the text of 'The Hobbit' but since I have read it 36 times I think I can go from memory that Gandalf tells Beorn that he cast "a lightning bolt". I don't remember either multiple lightning bolts in chapter were it happens or Gandalf's recounting of it. The only other 3rd level spell he uses after that in the text is "pyrotechnics" which he casts in the goblin Great Hall, and after that he noticeably stops casting spells until after Bilbo's escape the next day and fights with his sword.
d) Personally, I believe Gandalf is probably a 6th level wizard and you are correct that 6th level is more accurate of an assessment than 5th level, but also I believe that Gandalf isn't just a 6th level wizard. However, it's not outside of the text that he could be a 5th level wizard with a magical staff and a powerful ring. Personally, I believe that he is a 6th level wizard with a magic staff and a powerful ring, but also that in 1e AD&D terms his race is Agathion which explains why despite being similar level to the other heroes he's a much more puissant individual. In 3e terms, he's a +LA race.

Re-read when the goblins(orcs) opened the crack in the cave and took the dwarves. When Bilbo went down and met Gollum. He threw lightning there.

As for Weathertop, they Fellowship saw many flashes of fire in the distance and when they got there they found large burned out areas(such as when a fireball explodes).

 

[CreamCloud0]

Re-read when the goblins(orcs) opened the crack in the cave and took the dwarves. When Bilbo went down and met Gollum. He threw lightning there.

As for Weathertop, they Fellowship saw many flashes of fire in the distance and when they got there they found large burned out areas(such as when a fireball explodes).

i do question, when transferred into narrative format, if witch bolt, burning hands and/or chromatic orb(fire) would adequately suffice for his feats of magic.

 

[Maxperson]

i do question, when transferred into narrative format, if witch bolt, burning hands and/or chromatic orb(fire) would adequately suffice for his feats of magic.

I don't think so. In the cave Bilbo saw a flash like lightning and smelled ozone and several goblins fell dead. Then he sees more flashes off in the caves. Ozone is smelled after a lightning strike here in the real world.