D&D General Joe Manganiello: Compares Early 5E to BG 3 . How Important is Lore?

[Hussar]

This feels like a bit of a stretch. There is a stark quality difference between early 5e adventures and WotC's more recent releases. I'm sure there are many reasons why 5e sales have slowed down (even if they are still relatively strong), but low quality offerings with watered-down ideas and concepts are likely not helping.

Umm, nope. Sorry. Again, Spelljammer is one of the best selling modules they've put out. There is no evidence that 5e sales have slowed down. That's a Youtube myth that people keep seeming to latch onto with no actual evidence.

There's nothing wrong with Shattered Obelisk. It works perfectly fine and it does what it says on the tin. That people might not like it doesn't change the fact that it's still selling very strongly.

Can you show me the evidence that 5e sales are slowing?

This thread is from 2023, not seeing any drop off: https://www.enworld.org/threads/5e-lifetime-sales-in-north-american-big-box-stores-revealed.698946/
Q1 2023 is up 13% -
Granted, that's a year ago, but, I really don't think it's actually changed that much.

 

[Zardnaar]

Umm, nope. Sorry. Again, Spelljammer is one of the best selling modules they've put out. There is no evidence that 5e sales have slowed down. That's a Youtube myth that people keep seeming to latch onto with no actual evidence.

There's nothing wrong with Shattered Obelisk. It works perfectly fine and it does what it says on the tin. That people might not like it doesn't change the fact that it's still selling very strongly.

Can you show me the evidence that 5e sales are slowing?

Bookscan data. The newer stuff was selling around 1/3rd as 2-3 years previously in same time frame eg first 6 weeks.

It was also across multiple products. Spelljammer might be an exception but it's widely disliked due to its quality.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

There is no evidence that early 5e stuff was any good, I mean, Dragon Queen? Good? Really!?

The success of 5e was down to the simplicity and accessibility of it's rules, combined with streaming showing how it could be used for collaborative story-telling. It had nothing to do with adventures or lore.

The most creative made-for-5e adventure content is recent - Journeys Through the Radiant Citadel.

 

[mamba]

Q1 2023 is up 13%

you cannot point to overall sales to show that a specific product is selling well…

The only thing we have at the individual product level is the bookscan data, and there we do have an indication of declining sales

 

[Zardnaar]

you cannot point to overall sales to show that a specific product is selling well…

The only thing we have at the individual product level is the bookscan data, and there we do have an indication of declining sales

View attachment 345875

That bookscan datas also a bigger slice than say polling.

 

[Zardnaar]

There is no evidence that early 5e stuff was any good, I mean, Dragon Queen? Good? Really!?

The success of 5e was down to the simplicity and accessibility of it's rules, combined with streaming showing how it could be used for collaborative story-telling. It had nothing to do with adventures or lore.

The most creative made-for-5e adventure content is recent - Journeys Through the Radiant Citadel.

Sales do not reflect quality. Several bad adventures have the highest sales ever and some obscure ones are very good relative to when they came out. Sold bupkiss.

 

[wicked cool]

Hey look another hate d&d thread

First time I’ve thought about and hopefully last the beholder life cycle. Hey I didn’t know about flumphh mating cycles until Bg3 so there’s that

Wotc destroyed the book series as it wasn’t selling just like Star Wars did. Most of the books didn’t feel like d&d and it’s why Salvatore survived. I’m sure the new Dragonlance novels didn’t do well

I’ve said this elsewhere but did we really think studio was going to hand Joe 100 million plus for dragonlance .

For me phandelver and Ravenloft are the 2 best modules. I’ve heard good things for those who like Witchlight but the rest have felt like giant sandboxes with way too much work

The success of the old modules was you had a small town and then a deadly dungeon to explore. They were thin and just easier

I remember buying the forgotten realms boxed set in 87 and it was a lot of content however there was a lot left blank. I would love if someone contrasted that boxed set with wildemount source book and which 2 has more useable content

 

[DarkCrisis]

We can agree today the metaplot is not a good tool to sell more because thanks internet we can know what happens without spending a cent. And the cinematographic productions are for an audience who doesn't know very much the lore.

Dragonlance could be one of the best examples of how the lore or metaplot can become a "straight jacket".

* I have read my 2nd Ed MMs about beholders, and in the revised edition told it was mainly by "pathernogenesis" and rarely breeding with other member of the same specie. We can agree beholders hate each other too much for the "normal" sexual reproduction.

I’ve never gotten how meta plot can “be a straitjacket”.

I’ve run almost 90% of my D&D in Faerun and never ran afoul of meta plot. The other 10% in Krynn and even during the War of the Lance and never had issue with the meta plot.

They are big worlds with a lot of bad guys in it. The party doesn’t have to be Tanis and crew taking down Takhisis or Drizzt and crew seeking out Artemis.

Besides, Has any DM ever said “No you can’t go that way because Elminster does that later on.”?

Even if the PCs decide to obliterate Waterdeep doesn’t mean anything. It’s your game. Does your game need to be more true than the official meta plot?

Meta plot is there to make the world interesting and show development in a way we can read and enjoy. Only way we get that now is blurbs in adventure books and in Drizzt novels.

Again, I loved reading settings books because they gave me adventure ideas. Now, all you ge this the one and done adventure book. Which l suppose makes the most financial sense for WotC. One and done and come back for more.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

you cannot point to overall sales to show that a specific product is selling well…

The only thing we have at the individual product level is the bookscan data, and there we do have an indication of declining sales

View attachment 345875

Take away the red lines and this could easily be interpreted as a fairly static or very slightly upward trend at around 12K, with a grouping of anomalous highs around the COVID lockdown period.

 

[Remathilis]

They really should just drag out the multiverse explanation because I also suspect most people just, don't care enough at this point. There's multiple Faeruns. Just go the Transformers/Marvel way on this and just say that. It'd solve the problem in one fell easy swoop and be any easy way to drag in the end of the universe stuff when you want to pull it in.

WotC has dipped it's toe into this during 5e. There was a sidebar in SCAG about making the Realms your own, VRGR implied there could be multiple versions of the same domain, and BoMT said there are multiple origins for the Deck based on the edition you are playing. Even dragon "echos" used to explain how the same dragon can be on multiple words hint at this. I think WotC has been coy about this though and it would be nice if they just came out with "different editions and DM versions of a world are different realities".