D&D General Ravenloft: Monsters vs Darklords

[Paul Farquhar]

Do you remember where it says this in I6 (not doubting just want to confirm because I don’t remember it being in there: but there are lots of things I don’t remember)

It's already been covered, but the soul stuff was not in I6 - nor was Barovia on a separate plane. It was just a village in the "real" world surrounded by mist, and "Ravenloft" was only the name of the castle.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

I'm not interested in protagonists at all, because to me RPGs are not all about telling a story.

Doesn't seem much point in using a horror setting if you aren't going to use it to tell a horror story.

 

[LuisCarlos17f]

I feel a lot of curiosity about the original Barovia in the material plane. Maybe that land could allow enough space for different factions: vampire clans, werebeast tribes, fey courts, wraith guilds..

 

[Bedrockgames]

It's already been covered, but the soul stuff was not in I6 - nor was Barovia on a separate plane. It was just a village in the "real" world surrounded by mist, and "Ravenloft" was only the name of the castle.

I realize those elements. I think one of the things I liked about realm of terror was how they took the core idea and turned it into a setting

On the name Ravenloft, it was not name of the world even after it was a setting. At least not within the setting itself. The writers contradicted themselves on this (a lot of the early line has contradictions). So there is a weird anthology adventure called Book of Crypts, where an NPC says "Welcome to Ravenloft". But they also instructed the GM in the setting material that the people didn't call the world Ravenloft. Honestly this is something they should have pinned down and stuck with because it was a little confusing to even know what to call the setting in game when characters were talking to locals (I just said the world or earth)

 

[Bedrockgames]

But it's pretty clear that a lot of Ravenloft's undead have to have been created by the plane itself, and therefore have never actually been alive.

I don't think this is the case. We don't know how the dark powers create domains and populate them. But I tend to view Ravenloft as more oof a purgatory or afterlife. I don't think it is particularly defined, and obviously many characters who are still alive, or seemingly so, get drawn there, but the undead probably come from somewhere.

 

[Bedrockgames]

5e doesn't really define what it means by a "soul" in game terms though. What people understand the word to mean is going to depend on their religious background. Which is really a good reason for D&D to avoid talking about souls all together.

You don't have to bring your own religious background to it. But I think the source material, particularly anything dealing with vampires, is built on the assumption of people having souls (and many religions believe in souls around the world). If you strip this element out and make it a materialist setting that might work for more nihilistic horror, like Lovecraft or something, but I don't think it as well suited to classic and gothic horror

 

[Paul Farquhar]

You don't have to bring your own religious background to it. But I think the source material, particularly anything dealing with vampires, is built on the assumption of people having souls (and many religions believe in souls around the world). If you strip this element out and make it a materialist setting that might work for more nihilistic horror, like Lovecraft or something, but I don't think it as well suited to classic and gothic horror

Religion, specifically Christianity, plays an important part in Gothic Horror. Frankenstein is playing God, Dracula is repelled by crucifixes. But when it comes to D&D, it's no longer reasonable to assume that all players are coming from a Christian background, and thus will not understand the word "soul" in the same way. It means something quite different to a Buddhist, a Hindu, an Atheist, etc.

Even within Christianity, there are significant theological differences with regard to souls, some of which could have mechanical implications for D&D. Most obviously, do animals have souls?

 

[Bedrockgames]

Religion, specifically Christianity, plays an important part in Gothic Horror. Frankenstein is playing God, Dracula is repelled by crucifixes. But when it comes to D&D, it's no longer reasonable to assume that all players are coming from a Christian background, and thus will not understand the word "soul" in the same way. It means something quite different to a Buddhist, a Hindu, an Atheist, etc.

Again it doesn't have to do with the background of players. It has to do with the genre background. And I don't think it needs to be explicitly christian, but the game seems to assume souls as a default (even outside of Ravenloft). It is just an important genre consideration.

But not coming from the same background doesn't mean these ideas will be incomprehensible. Many important details are different but my wife is a Buddhist (was raised buddhist her whole life) and there is still plenty of common ground on souls. We saw Dracula the other night together and she completely understood the spiritual elements (in part because there are similarities in her own religion but also because even people raised in Buddhist countries are familiar with Christianity----both having been exposed to it in life but also through American and European media). Ravenlfot is weird enough it could be thought of as anything from something like a Catholic purgatory to one of the Buddhist hells or Chinese hells. Obviously it takes substantial liberties with any of those (it is a far cry from Dante's Purgatory) but the point is I think someone familiar with these things could find something familiar in the way souls are handled in Ravenloft

The issue isn't to make Ravenloft explicitly connected to a real world religion. D&D has its own religions which are perfectly functional here. But if you take out the soul, you really are removing something pretty fundamental to the genre and like I said, it can work for stuff that is based on a more materialistic world view. I don't see it working for lore that is built on the idea that the soul can be corrupted

Even within Christianity, there are significant theological differences with regard to souls, some of which could have mechanical implications for D&D. Most obviously, do animals have souls?

Sure, no one is saying otherwise. This isn't about imposing a particular view on the soul. It is about the soul having a place in fantasy

 

[Micah Sweet]

Religion, specifically Christianity, plays an important part in Gothic Horror. Frankenstein is playing God, Dracula is repelled by crucifixes. But when it comes to D&D, it's no longer reasonable to assume that all players are coming from a Christian background, and thus will not understand the word "soul" in the same way. It means something quite different to a Buddhist, a Hindu, an Atheist, etc.

Even within Christianity, there are significant theological differences with regard to souls, some of which could have mechanical implications for D&D. Most obviously, do animals have souls?

So what? Source material has a flavor, and watering that down because that flavor doesn't apply or appeal to everybody doesn't do anyone any favors.

 

[Bedrockgames]

So what? Source material has a flavor, and watering that down because that flavor doesn't apply or appeal to everybody doesn't do anyone any favors.

I think it is a mistake to assume souls will take away the appeal to people. I like lots of movies, books and shows built on lore and history very different from what I was raised with. We should give audiences credit here. They can go beyond their own experiences and beliefs. But also D&D religion and souls are quite generic. If we talking about these conflicting with beliefs, Christian’s would have as much reason to object as anyone else (there is no God of the Bible in D&D after all). But people understand it is fantasy. Also why should the default be atheistic or materialistic, how is a more atheistic treatment of souls more inviting to people from a wide range of religious backgrounds?