How Visible To players Should The Rules Be?

[Micah Sweet]

No it is just assuming the position that the player doesn't know the rules, and the DM doesn't share them just adjudicates them, because they believe the best game is when the player doesn't know them. Which was the original point of the thread.

Could have sworn the OP said something about everyone being right. That being the case, not sure what all the disputes are about. It's just preference, and there's no reason to try to change anyone's mind here.

 

[Micah Sweet]

So you think it’s okay for them to know the rules? But it should be hidden from them the first time?

Unless they have reason to know how fast casting is beforehand. Of they do, then sure, they should know those rules.

Ideally, the player should at least play their PC using only information the PC has reason to know. IMO of course.

Again, just like real life. If there was magic.

 

[Campbell]

You have a character who wants to disrupt enemy spellcasting. You ask the DM about the details, and they answer based on what your PC would know.

Unless they have reason to know how fast casting is beforehand. Of they do, then sure, they should know those rules.

Ideally, the player should at least play their PC using only information the PC has reason to know. IMO of course.

Again, just like real life. If there was magic.

Except that stop motion initiative is a gameplay abstraction for simultaneous action, one that can vary from game to game in its execution.

If you want players to depend solely on fictional reasoning why not simply make that the mechanic? What good are the rules doing?

 

[Micah Sweet]

Except that stop motion initiative is a gameplay abstraction for simultaneous action, one that can vary from game to game in its execution.

If you want players to depend solely on fictional reasoning why not simply make that the mechanic? What good are the rules doing?

Because there's a lot more to combat than who goes first.

Stop motion initiative is a necessary abstraction for the system to work (at least to my liking; I find simultaneous initiative extremely annoying). Like hit points. It's not perfect, but I like most alternatives less.

 

[Thomas Shey]

Most people don't. You could fill pages with people not understanding such things.

Not professionals in their field you don't. Any premise with that as a basis is faulty from the get-go.

 

[Reynard]

Ask people, without reference to mechanics, whether they can climb a given wall. Then how long it takes. Then whether it is possible to do so wearing X outfit with such and such a backpack. Then with specific tools. This is entirely possible to be a sequence of events. Then have different levels of understanding of rock climbing.

(Yes, this was a specific exchange on a MUX I was on some years ago, and the answer to every part of it mattered. Now multiply this by a number of other things that came up in the situation. That this didn't end up being extremely painful largely turned on me and the person operating as a gamesmaster largely being on the same page.)

Okay. We are starting from the assumption that the character has been defined through a knowledge of a specific genre. let's say that the character is a heroic adventurer in a fantasy milieu. Let's also assume, since this is the supposition, that the GM knows the rules and isn't just making up everything by fiat.

The PC outside a secure manor and wants to scale a wall to get inside. The GM describes the difficulty of scaling in the fiction. "The wall is well constructed to prevent infiltration, with a smooth surface and few handholds" or "The wall is old and much of the palster has crumbled, as well as ivy growing up it that might provide handholds." In either case, the player has a in fiction piece of information that they con combine with their foundational information about their competence, and can thus make an informed decision about whether to attempt the climb in the fiction.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Okay. We are starting from the assumption that the character has been defined through a knowledge of a specific genre. let's say that the character is a heroic adventurer in a fantasy milieu. Let's also assume, since this is the supposition, that the GM knows the rules and isn't just making up everything by fiat.

The PC outside a secure manor and wants to scale a wall to get inside. The GM describes the difficulty of scaling in the fiction. "The wall is well constructed to prevent infiltration, with a smooth surface and few handholds" or "The wall is old and much of the palster has crumbled, as well as ivy growing up it that might provide handholds." In either case, the player has a in fiction piece of information that they con combine with their foundational information about their competence, and can thus make an informed decision about whether to attempt the climb in the fiction.

Sounds better to me than, "DC 16 to succeed on the climb. Roll Athletics."

 

[Reynard]

Sounds better to me than, "DC 16 to succeed on the climb. Roll Athletics."

Just as a reminder, I am actually a "players should know the rules" person because I think it generally enhances agency. But, it does so at the expense of immersion. So, if someone cares about immersion (I don't), I can see the argument for the "invisible rules" school of thought.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Just as a reminder, I am actually a "players should know the rules" person because I think it generally enhances agency. But, it does so at the expense of immersion. So, if someone cares about immersion (I don't), I can see the argument for the "invisible rules" school of thought.

Fair enough. I'm an immersion guy, but I have no problem with players knowing the rules so long as they play their PCs like the person in an imaginary world they are.

 

[hawkeyefan]

Just as a reminder, I am actually a "players should know the rules" person because I think it generally enhances agency. But, it does so at the expense of immersion. So, if someone cares about immersion (I don't), I can see the argument for the "invisible rules" school of thought.

I don’t think immersion and rules knowledge need be at odds. I certainly wouldn’t feel immersed in a game where I didn’t have some actual sense of odds other than pat descriptions like those of the wall. How good am I at climbing? How difficult is the wall likely to be? These are things the character can gage in some manner that goes beyond mere description from the GM.

I would not feel very immersed at all in such a game.