Lanefan
Victoria Rules
Indeed, and it's a refreshing change.
Piracy And Other Malfeasance
- Thread starter Reynard
- Start date
MGibster
Legend
Every time I see this I wonder if the person has ever heard of Thucydides. He's most famous for writing History of the Peloponnesian War. Thucydides, an Athenian, was on the losing side of the war and wrote was the definitive history for two millennia. The American South lost their Civil War and yet their historiography came to dominate the narrative for decades. Victors aren't always the ones who write the history.
Voadam
Legend
Well the 5e PH does say on page 45 that "ADVENTURERS ARE EXTRAORDINARY PEOPLE, driven by a thirst for excitement into a life that others would never dare lead. They are heroes, compelled to explore the dark places of the world and take on the challenges that lesser women and men can't stand against."
Pretty much from 2e on the PH has framed the party as heroes.
4e from the cover: "Player’s Handbook - Arcane, Divine, and Martial Heroes" page 4: "You take on the role of a legendary hero—a skilled fighter, a courageous cleric, a deadly rogue, or a spell-hurling wizard."
3.5 PH page 4: "D&D is a game of your imagination in which you participate in thrilling adventures and dangerous quests by taking on the role of a hero"
2e PH: "First, the AD&D game is a game of heroic fantasy."
Also "The warrior group encompasses the character classes of heroes who make their way in the world primarily by skill at arms: fighters, paladins, and rangers."
And even "The profession of thief is not honorable, yet it is not entirely dishonorable, either. Many famous folk heroes have been more than a little larcenous—Reynard the Fox, Robin Goodfellow, and Ali Baba are but a few. At his best, the thief is a romantic hero fired by noble purpose but a little wanting in strength of character."
In the 1e PH if you search for the word hero you get that as the class title of a 4th level fighter and a few references to heroism potions. 1e generally talks about adventurers for its framing.
Pretty much from 2e on the PH has framed the party as heroes.
4e from the cover: "Player’s Handbook - Arcane, Divine, and Martial Heroes" page 4: "You take on the role of a legendary hero—a skilled fighter, a courageous cleric, a deadly rogue, or a spell-hurling wizard."
3.5 PH page 4: "D&D is a game of your imagination in which you participate in thrilling adventures and dangerous quests by taking on the role of a hero"
2e PH: "First, the AD&D game is a game of heroic fantasy."
Also "The warrior group encompasses the character classes of heroes who make their way in the world primarily by skill at arms: fighters, paladins, and rangers."
And even "The profession of thief is not honorable, yet it is not entirely dishonorable, either. Many famous folk heroes have been more than a little larcenous—Reynard the Fox, Robin Goodfellow, and Ali Baba are but a few. At his best, the thief is a romantic hero fired by noble purpose but a little wanting in strength of character."
In the 1e PH if you search for the word hero you get that as the class title of a 4th level fighter and a few references to heroism potions. 1e generally talks about adventurers for its framing.
Voadam
Legend
Kenada had the link earlier. Basically 2e internal guidance on narrative stuff TSR felt was out of bounds.
From the link:
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Crimes shall not be presented in such ways as to promote distrust of law enforcement agents/agencies or to inspire others with the desire to imitate criminals. Crime should be depicted as a sordid and unpleasant activity. Criminals should not be presented in glamorous circumstances. Player character thieves are constantly encouraged to act towards the common good.
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GrimCo
Hero
Heard about him. He was accused by Athens for treason (he failed at defense of Amfipol) and went into exile till the end of war. But, he was for most part neutral in his depictions on Peloponnese War.
If you take any mainstream high school history book, usually they skip over more seedy things done by victors. Let's just say that using atomic bombs on civilian population is questionable at best, but well, good guys did it so it's ok (i'm oversimplifying it a bit, but that's accepted narrative for the most part). I'm not familiar enough with history curriculum in USA to comment on what is taught in schools about Civil War, sorry. But we are steering kinda off topic.
@Voadam
Hero is also another word for protagonist. It doesn't automatically imply that one is "good". For example, Elric of Melnibone is moraly grey at best, yet he is hero (protagonist) of Moorcock's novels.
Also, thanks for posting that. Had no idea about any of that. I did play 2ed ad&d, but never read those.
Voadam
Legend
I disagree on the usage.
Usually common modern usage of hero has an idealism or moral characteristic to it. Elric is often considered a bit of an antihero meaning an otherwise heroic (powerful and active) protagonist who lacks some of the moral attributes of a hero.
Generally saying someone is the hero in their own story is a bit about how they think of themself as both the protagonist and as the good guy in their own head, not just the main character of their story.
Classical Greek heroes were more about extraordinary individuals who achieved glory so Greek heroes accomplished amazing things but could be horrible people too. Going all the way back to Gilgamesh and his terrorizing his own people.
GrimCo
Hero
Way back in high school, in our literature class, we used protagonist and hero interchangeably. Actually, we used another word that translates in English to hero, but definitions of words in both croatian dictionary and english dictionary are quite similar. It's either someone who is courageous and accomplished, great warrior, central figure of event, or main protagonist of the story. Only thing that even touches morality is one about a person admired for achievements and noble qualities, but what those noble qualities are, it's up to interpretation.
But, for most part, i get what you're saying and agree about hero in their own story thing. And that's where i like my PC to be, They are heroes of their own story. And for some NPCs, they are also heroes. For others, they are villains.
But, for most part, i get what you're saying and agree about hero in their own story thing. And that's where i like my PC to be, They are heroes of their own story. And for some NPCs, they are also heroes. For others, they are villains.
A protagonist is a character whose dramatic needs drive the story forward. A protagonist may be a hero, and hero can be used to refer to a (kind of) protagonist, but I wouldn’t use the two interchangeably.
Like I said before in post #62, my Blades in the Dark character was no hero. I would not describe the PCs in my campaign as heroes either. They’re adventures who ultimately want to loot the fallen capital. To force either into a heroic narrative would be overly reductive, and I fear it would rob the characters (PCs and NPCs alike) of depth.
Like I said before in post #62, my Blades in the Dark character was no hero. I would not describe the PCs in my campaign as heroes either. They’re adventures who ultimately want to loot the fallen capital. To force either into a heroic narrative would be overly reductive, and I fear it would rob the characters (PCs and NPCs alike) of depth.
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