D&D (2024) Greyhawk Confirmed. Tell Me Why.

[Paul Farquhar]

You don't have notary publics in the UK? I find that hard to believe.

There are all sorts of documents that you need special qualifications to witness. Try dealing with anything related to citizenship and you will find that out fast enough.

Not for wills, contracts etc. whilst a solicitor will often be involved in drawing up the document, pretty much anyone can witness it. It’s the solution to Agatha Christie’s Why Didn’t They Ask Evans? Why wasn’t the housekeeper asked to witness the will?

 

[Azzy]

That we would have any difficulty missing a group of people in that sort of space in Medieval times is very easy to believe.

Yeah, and that's only really important if your Greyhawk campaign is continued from previous editions. For new campaigns, there's no need to explain why they weren't noticed before (because there's no effective "before"). Just give an area of origin for whatever new species (maybe Dragonborn have a small nation in the Hellfurnaces, abutting the Sea of Dust and are not uncommon in the Hold of the Sea Princes).

 

[Stormonu]

Something that happened to come up in another thread ...

Back in 3.5E, Dragonborn were introduced in the Races of the Dragon. In that book, it was written out as a fairly new process introduced by Bahumat to combat Tiamat and her chromatic dragon's influence. The process to become a dragonborn literally had humans/demi-humans undergoing a metamorphosis into a dragonborn. This could be used to explain dragonborn in Greyhawk (insofar as 3E was using Greyhawk as the default); they are "soldiers" in Bahumat's army, individuals with no racial or national identity. It may very well be that Tiamat's forces may have captured metallic dragonborn and found a way to produce chromatic versions as well ... which could be a harbinger for a coming war between dragons and dragonkind...

 

[Parmandur]

So, the DMG cover dropped today, and one of the top billed items is that ut contains "a pre-built yet customizable world" per the back cover. Not namecheckibg that it is Greyhawk, ut selling potential DMs that it is, one, pre-built and ready to use as is, but two, primed to be made one's own.

Which to call back to the original question, Greyhawk is literally custom built to fulfill that function.

 

[Pauln6]

Kinda, sorta?

It really depends on what part of Greyhawk you're looking at. After all, the Sea Princes travel very extensively for example. With trade reaching all the way from Iuz to Keoland.

Never minding that you have very, very large areas that aren't settled particularly at all. Dragonborn would seem to be a very easy thing to slot in. Easiest would be to say they were thought to be lizardfolk and have only recently started getting noticed. Wild Coast and Pomarj would be simple sources. Greyhawk may not be vast, but, it's not exactly small. Every one of those hexes is 30 miles. From Geoff to the Great Kingdom is 4000 miles as the crow flies. To put that in perspective, that's Paris to Delhi. That covers most of Europe and a honking big chunk of Asia.

There's LOTS of space in Greyhawk. It's freaking huge.

That we would have any difficulty missing a group of people in that sort of space in Medieval times is very easy to believe.

True but there you are talking about small enclaves in particular locations. You can, of course splat remote villages anywhere, in mountains, virgin forest or swamp, for any reason, but you aren't going to evoke the concept of a noble, cultured race. You are better off looking beyond Eastern Oerik for that sort of thing.

 

[Faolyn]

WotC has its multiverse. They aren’t likely to suggest world builders create a new one from scratch!

Frankly, what would be the point, anyway?

They actually already do. "As described in the Player's Handbook, the assumed D&D cosmology includes more than two dozen planes. For your campaign, you decide what planes to include, inspired by the standard planes, drawn from Earth's myths, or created by your own imagination."

 

[Paul Farquhar]

Something that happened to come up in another thread ...

Back in 3.5E, Dragonborn were introduced in the Races of the Dragon. In that book, it was written out as a fairly new process introduced by Bahumat to combat Tiamat and her chromatic dragon's influence. The process to become a dragonborn literally had humans/demi-humans undergoing a metamorphosis into a dragonborn. This could be used to explain dragonborn in Greyhawk (insofar as 3E was using Greyhawk as the default); they are "soldiers" in Bahumat's army, individuals with no racial or national identity. It may very well be that Tiamat's forces may have captured metallic dragonborn and found a way to produce chromatic versions as well ... which could be a harbinger for a coming war between dragons and dragonkind...

Frankly, some kind of magical creation works better than the usual biological reproduction. There are actually (at least) 15 different types of dragonborn, for the different coloured dragons. Unless colour is randomly determined (see magic) that means you need not 1 but 15 breading populations of dragonborn. Added together, that's a very large number of dragonborn.

 

[Parmandur]

Frankly, some kind of magical creation works better than the usual biological reproduction. There are actually (at least) 15 different types of dragonborn, for the different coloured dragons. Unless colour is randomly determined (see magic) that means you need not 1 but 15 breading populations of dragonborn. Added together, that's a very large number of dragonborn.

The 2014 PHB lore suggested the color association is random, within the Dragonborn population, but we'll see how they handle it in the future.

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

Yeah, and that's only really important if your Greyhawk campaign is continued from previous editions. For new campaigns, there's no need to explain why they weren't noticed before (because there's no effective "before"). Just give an area of origin for whatever new species (maybe Dragonborn have a small nation in the Hellfurnaces, abutting the Sea of Dust and are not uncommon in the Hold of the Sea Princes).

I'd go with the Sulhaut Mountains, given that they have a sparse and mysterious description in the original lore ... and the location.

 

[Chaosmancer]

Hope this will clear things up!

View attachment 365173

When you get this, then maybe we can discuss other things.

When I get what?

People who are long time fans of greyhawk exist, yes. They are not the target audience for a chapter on how to world-build. Sure, they may be excited about the inclusion of Greyhawk in the DMG, but the teaching aspect isn't for them. They are long-time fans of an established setting. Not new people coming how to learn how to build a setting.

People who know Tolkien tropes... again, they exist, but so what? Cultural osmosis will have told them Orcs are big, green and tribal. Which is nothing like Tolkien, but that's how orcs have been depicted since Warcraft redefined them. Elves? Other than being long-lived are elves magic addicts clinging to their noble glory? Violent xenophobes who eat humans? There are truly hundreds of different takes on "elf"... and most of them INCLUDING TOLKIEN do not apply to DnDn elves at all.

So two of your circles are nonsensical to consider, since they are mostly "long time fans of the setting" or "people who have read fantasy".

Your last circle is the closest to the actual audience being considered. People who are looking to be taught how to world-build. And, if you notice, that little purple part where you keep pointing to as a problem... is a tiny tiny sliver of that population, requiring that they ALSO be fans of greyhawk and ALSO conform to Tolkien lore, but not understand that Tolkien lore is different than DnD lore.

So again, how is this an issue, if there is a slim possibility that some small section of die hard fans who don't realize the game and fantasy have evolved over the last 40 years, might be upset that things have changed? They are a small part of the audience, and even then, half of them at least won't accept any changes, declaring that WotC is just dumb and stupid and doesn't know what REAL Greyhawk fans want.