Pathfinder 2E I think I am giving up on PF2ER

Which FLGS are folks in the TC at?
Galaxy Games in Eagan has a good group, just the time sucks for me (Saturday at 11:30am). Fox Den Games in Burnsville also has a group on Mondays last I checked, which again sucks for me because my regular group plays on Mondays.

There’s some other places, like the Minneapolis Dreamers Vault. The organizers use Meetup to advertise.
 

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paizo staff have made like a million posts about it. It is not hard to find any. Here's one from just a few weeks ago by Michael Sayre about how Paizo was struggling to keep the lights on during the mid-life of 1e: paizo.com - Forums / Pathfinder Second Edition: General Discussion: A few questions about the future of paizo

And another from James Jacobs about him and other adventure path line developers working 60-80 hour weeks because they did not have enough staff to functionally produce them during the 1e era: paizo.com - Forums / Pathfinder Adventure Path: General Discussion: No more 6-parts APs?

And that's two of many across the forums, Reddit, discord, Twitter....

Thank you. I know I've seen them elsewhere (I think Reddit?), but I'm not on the forums and Google's search is terrible nowadays.

Edit: Wow, actually missing some interesting discussions on their forum. That second one regarding moving away from the 6-Part AP is interesting, as it really does feel like they've started to play around with their older formula more recently with a lot of 3-Part APs.
 

paizo staff have made like a million posts about it. It is not hard to find any. Here's one from just a few weeks ago by Michael Sayre about how Paizo was struggling to keep the lights on during the mid-life of 1e: paizo.com - Forums / Pathfinder Second Edition: General Discussion: A few questions about the future of paizo
Nice find, though I'll point out here that this doesn't speak to what was discussed previously in that sales of PF1 were declining. To be clear, Sayre says that "we were declining" (i.e. Paizo), but doesn't clarify what that means beyond that they were having trouble making ends meet at some points. Why that was isn't stated (i.e. if some other costs had gone up, or if they were paying costs on failed ventures such as Goblinworks, etc).
And another from James Jacobs about him and other adventure path line developers working 60-80 hour weeks because they did not have enough staff to functionally produce them during the 1e era: paizo.com - Forums / Pathfinder Adventure Path: General Discussion: No more 6-parts APs?
Likewise, this doesn't speak to the issue which we were discussing before, where sales of PF1 were purported to have been going down. While I have no doubt that PF2 is doing well for Paizo, they got two notable boosts in that regard: one from the pandemic, and another from the OGL scandal. That highlights how salient external factors are in these discussions.
 

Nice find, though I'll point out here that this doesn't speak to what was discussed previously in that sales of PF1 were declining. To be clear, Sayre says that "we were declining" (i.e. Paizo), but doesn't clarify what that means beyond that they were having trouble making ends meet at some points. Why that was isn't stated (i.e. if some other costs had gone up, or if they were paying costs on failed ventures such as Goblinworks, etc).

Likewise, this doesn't speak to the issue which we were discussing before, where sales of PF1 were purported to have been going down. While I have no doubt that PF2 is doing well for Paizo, they got two notable boosts in that regard: one from the pandemic, and another from the OGL scandal. That highlights how salient external factors are in these discussions.
This is a very strange argument and seems to stretch credulity. Why are you so vested in the idea that PF1 was not down in sales that you'll go through such intellectual gymnastics?
 


This is a very strange argument
I disagree. From what I can tell, everything that's been put forward so far seems to rely on inference, i.e. "this makes the most sense, so it must be true." I'm trying not to get sucked into that line of thinking.

As near as I can tell, even if we disregard the "established wisdom" that an edition of any RPG will sell less and less over time until its publisher has to put out a new edition in order to survive, the two quotes linked to before don't speak to a decline in sales of PF1. "We had trouble paying our bills at some points" doesn't tell us why they had trouble. Putting in 60-80 hours of work to get something out the door, likewise, is inferred to be because they didn't have enough money to hire more staff, but even if that's correct (and there are no other salient factors), it doesn't tell us that sales went down from what they were.

I can understand the impulse to draw what seems like an obvious conclusion from data which sounds like it's nodding in the direction of that conclusion. I'm just pointing out the leaps of logic involved in doing so.
 

I disagree. From what I can tell, everything that's been put forward so far seems to rely on inference, i.e. "this makes the most sense, so it must be true." I'm trying not to get sucked into that line of thinking.

As near as I can tell, even if we disregard the "established wisdom" that an edition of any RPG will sell less and less over time until its publisher has to put out a new edition in order to survive, the two quotes linked to before don't speak to a decline in sales of PF1. "We had trouble paying our bills at some points" doesn't tell us why they had trouble. Putting in 60-80 hours of work to get something out the door, likewise, is inferred to be because they didn't have enough money to hire more staff, but even if that's correct (and there are no other salient factors), it doesn't tell us that sales went down from what they were.

I can understand the impulse to draw what seems like an obvious conclusion from data which sounds like it's nodding in the direction of that conclusion. I'm just pointing out the leaps of logic involved in doing so.
You don't think that if it wasn't the obvious thing, they would have said so? You think it makes more sense that the something besides slipping sales was making life hard for the company that sells books, especially in the context of a "why 2E" thread?
 

You don't think that if it wasn't the obvious thing, they would have said so?
I don't, in fact, think that, because it's making the exact sort of inference that I just said I wanted to avoid.
You think it makes more sense that the something besides slipping sales was making life hard for the company that sells books, especially in the context of a "why 2E" thread?
Leaving aside what I just said about not wanting to infer conclusions, I'm not sure how you'd quantify "more sense." I'd rather embrace skepticism with regard to the fact if we're not told what happened, we shouldn't just decide that we know what happened.

(For that matter, we should still be skeptical (as a general rule) even if we are told what happened, not because of any sort of implication that anyone involved isn't trustworthy, but because having more pieces of the puzzle doesn't necessarily mean that any given person has enough of them to see the entire picture.)
 

I don't, in fact, think that, because it's making the exact sort of inference that I just said I wanted to avoid.

Leaving aside what I just said about not wanting to infer conclusions, I'm not sure how you'd quantify "more sense." I'd rather embrace skepticism with regard to the fact if we're not told what happened, we shouldn't just decide that we know what happened.

(For that matter, we should still be skeptical (as a general rule) even if we are told what happened, not because of any sort of implication that anyone involved isn't trustworthy, but because having more pieces of the puzzle doesn't necessarily mean that any given person has enough of them to see the entire picture.)
I'm still not sure what the motivation is to ascribe some mysterious unknown cause of Paizo's financial difficulties over the most likely explanation, inference notwithstanding.
 

I'm still not sure what the motivation is to ascribe some mysterious unknown cause of Paizo's financial difficulties over the most likely explanation, inference notwithstanding.
Not making use of inference is the motivation.

I've spent the last few years reading about the history of the tabletop RPG hobby, and in the course of doing so I've noticed that gamers seem to be particularly prone (more so than most other people) to narrativizing history. We take a series of events and make them into a story, just like in games, and settle on the idea of that being "what (really) happened."

And quite often, we get it wrong.

Remember the idea of "TSR died because they split their customer base among various campaign settings; they would spend 100% of their time and effort on a given product, and only 10% of their customer base would look at it, while the other 90% wanted nothing to do with it because it wasn't for their preferred campaign setting, and that's what ended up tanking the company"?

Except, as it turned out, this wasn't the whole truth. While splitting their customer base seems to have had some negative impact on TSR's finances, what we now know suggests that, in terms of what led to the company's collapse, that was a distant third. Far more salient causes were:
  1. Their agreement with Randomhouse, which granted TSR money upfront for books they gave Randomhouse to sell, but which required them to pay back the money on unsold books which Randomhouse would subsequently return to them.
  2. Factoring. This is the process whereby TSR would agree to turn over 100% of the expected net profits for the upcoming year to a lending organization, in return for receiving roughly 87% (or so) of those profits at the beginning of the year. A side effect of this agreement was that they had to stick to the outlined sales plan, leaving them with no room to pivot in response to industry changes (e.g. selling the AD&D 2E CD-ROM through Babbage's stores even as those stores were closing, and so selling all of their inventory for pennies on the dollar).
And that's just the stuff we've uncovered in the years since (and simplifies things a lot, particularly with regard to what's not listed above).

As a personal rule, I like narratives in games, but not in real life. I want to know what's actually going on, and what happened before, rather than assuming "this makes the most sense." And to be sure, sometimes the latter is the best we can do (and on occasion, the inference even turns out to be right), but that's not a reason to make that the go-to option.

It might very well be that PF1 sales were declining, to the point where Paizo needed to release a new edition to avoid closing their doors (from what I've read, the major motivation for new editions of TTRPGs is primarily financial). I just don't want to presume that out of hand; we used to presume that "adventures don't sell," but Paizo still sells Adventure Paths, periodic stand-alone adventures, and Pathfinder Society adventures. So I'd rather not assume they can buck one trend but not another.
 

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