D&D (2024) Greyhawk Confirmed. Tell Me Why.

[Hussar]

Again, I get the feeling that there isn't all that much disagreement here. It's more a semantic issue about the word "support". Some people want more official material for a setting, and others don't see it as much of an issue. Me? I have no real dog in this race since I don't buy setting books anyway, so, even if they were available, it wouldn't really matter to me.

I can kinda see both sides here. Those claiming support means more than one (or two) and done plus DM's Guild aren't wrong. But, by the same token, those pointing to the massive amounts of material that already exists as well aren't wrong either. I mean, if you wanted to play Mystara and you're not hung up on WotC doing it, there's already something like Mystara Player’s Guide | RPGMP3 the Mystara Player's Guide which weighs in at over 200 pages. Mystara is well supported, just not by WotC.

Really, the same goes for Greyhawk. There's a TON of Greyhawk material on Canonfire! And professionally written level stuff too. Years of 5e material.

So, is Greyhawk being supported or not? It all depends on how you squint.

 

[pemerton]

Off the top of my head:

1. How do I ascend to an immortal in 5e?

2. When my player wants to play a Diaboli, where would I find the stats for that?

What percentage of games set in the Known World have ever used Immortality? My guess would be less than 1%. And doesn't 5e have some rules somewhere for Epic/Immortal-type feats?

I've read and played a bit of Known World and I don't know what a Diaboli is. Google is turning up very much about them. I found this: Diabolus (Monstrous Manual)

They seem like human with a bite, a tail and a fast movement ability (cartwheeling?). Surely the existing panoply of 5e races enables cobbling some of this together. I mean, is the player who wants to play a Diaboli such a newcomer to D&D that they can't find something out there?

 

[pemerton]

Sure, an experienced DM familiar with both the original setting and the nuances of the edition it was written for could find the appropriate materials needed to run 5e Mystara, heck if they were adept enough, they would find fans who have done the work for them.

I don't think much adeptness is required, is it? A bit of Googling or a post on ENworld seems like it would probably do the job.

But the bigger thing to my mind is, why would anyone who has never seen the map in The Isle of Dread, or never heard of the GAZ series, even want to play in Mystara/The Known World?

The notion that, if WotC were to publish Mystara stuff, they would drum up hitherto-unrealised interest in the setting strikes me as pretty fanciful. Whatever interest there is is due entirely to experienced and old-time D&Ders.

 

[Remathilis]

The folks at Wizards are generally creative sorts. There are lots of gaps still to be filled in Eberron. Filling out the nations of Khorvaire should be good for another 2 books at least, plus a remake of Five Nations (because we want the books on shelves in game stores, not just PDFs for sale via dmsguild.com). A 5e update of Magic of Eberron. A book on psionics, designed specifically to work with how psionics works in Eberron (or rather, use that as the baseline for a "generic" psionics book). An Eberronean monster book, providing both more breadth for various humanoids as they exist in Eberron as well as other Eberron-specific monsters (living spells, horrid animals, various constructs, various giant cultures, etc.). A book about various organizations, such as the Aurum, the Emerald Claw, the King's Lanterns, the followers of the Lord of Blades, various Talenta tribes or maybe pan-tribal societies, and so on. A few adventures. An in-depth sourcebook on a city other than Sharn or Stormreach – Thronehold has amazing potential for intrigue, what with being shared between the remaining four constituent nations of Galifar.

Would you be willing to place Eberron in the Core Rules ala Golarion and have every supplement reference Eberron to get all that?

 

[Remathilis]

I don't think much adeptness is required, is it? A bit of Googling or a post on ENworld seems like it would probably do the job.

But the bigger thing to my mind is, why would anyone who has never seen the map in The Isle of Dread, or never heard of the GAZ series, even want to play in Mystara/The Known World?

The notion that, if WotC were to publish Mystara stuff, they would drum up hitherto-unrealised interest in the setting strikes me as pretty fanciful. Whatever interest there is is due entirely to experienced and old-time D&Ders.

You are absolutely missing the point, almost intentionally. You need a book on the shelf for people to see if you want to make new fans. Ravenloft was a module, Spelljammer a meme before WotC put new products out with their names on it. Old fans know, but old fans aren't going to pay your bills forever (especially when they seem more than content to Google or use Enworld to get their setting info.) You need product in front of new fans to guide them in.

Ravenloft, Planescape and Dragonlance is seeing a resurgence of interest due to new products on shelves for new players to discover. Dark Sun, Mystara and Birthright are not, and they are becoming more obscure and irrelevant because of it.

 

[pemerton]

You are absolutely missing the point, almost intentionally. You need a book on the shelf for people to see if you want to make new fans.

I didn't say anything about making new fans. The idea that, at this late stage, there are going to e any new fans of The Known World/Mystara - at least in numbers sufficient to justify writing and publishing material for them - seems utterly implausible to me. That ship sailed 30 to 40 years ago!

My comment was simply that playing 5e in that setting seemed pretty straightforward - you just do it.

old fans aren't going to pay your bills forever (especially when they seem more than content to Google or use Enworld to get their setting info.) You need product in front of new fans to guide them in.

But who thinks that a Mystara revival is the way to guide new fans into buying WotC's stuff? That sounds implausible too. I mean, by all accounts WotC is doing OK with D&D sales, without having published any new Mystara stuff.

 

[Hussar]

I didn't say anything about making new fans. The idea that, at this late stage, there are going to e any new fans of The Known World/Mystara - at least in numbers sufficient to justify writing and publishing material for them - seems utterly implausible to me. That ship sailed 30 to 40 years ago!

My comment was simply that playing 5e in that setting seemed pretty straightforward - you just do it.

But who thinks that a Mystara revival is the way to guide new fans into buying WotC's stuff? That sounds implausible too. I mean, by all accounts WotC is doing OK with D&D sales, without having published any new Mystara stuff.

One could very, very easily make an identical argument about Greyhawk.

 

[Chaosmancer]

In the words of Ron Swanson: Never half-ass two things. Whole-ass one thing.

So, pick 2-3 settings that get actual support with 2-4 books per year. Feel free to make additional one-offs, but don't call them "supported".

I don't think one book a month would be overdoing it, to be honest. I don't know if that's what maximizes ROI, but it's certainly doable. I don't want to go back to 2e with a dozen books each month, or even 3e with 2-3 books per month, but one book per month? That shouldn't be an issue.

I can barely do a book a year. A book a month? I would stop paying attention to anything WoTC is selling, because I just couldn't afford it.

And I'm not sure I would want to have only two to three settings, because we have a fairly good idea of exactly what that short list would look like.

 

[pemerton]

One could very, very easily make an identical argument about Greyhawk.

Agreed 100%. 200%!

Greyhawk is a map, a backstory, some basic concepts and characters. Plus whatever further details you want, depending on what modules and supplements you want to buy. (You're not the biggest fan of Greyhawk Adventures, it seems, but I've used Tovag Baragu in play.)

The only reason I can see for putting GH into the DMG is a bit of 50-year nostalgia, combined with the fact that I think it's an easier example of how to build a generic D&D setting than FR because it has less detail (and less detail that has already been presented to the current 5e community).

 

[Chaosmancer]

The folks at Wizards are generally creative sorts. There are lots of gaps still to be filled in Eberron. Filling out the nations of Khorvaire should be good for another 2 books at least, plus a remake of Five Nations (because we want the books on shelves in game stores, not just PDFs for sale via dmsguild.com). A 5e update of Magic of Eberron. A book on psionics, designed specifically to work with how psionics works in Eberron (or rather, use that as the baseline for a "generic" psionics book). An Eberronean monster book, providing both more breadth for various humanoids as they exist in Eberron as well as other Eberron-specific monsters (living spells, horrid animals, various constructs, various giant cultures, etc.). A book about various organizations, such as the Aurum, the Emerald Claw, the King's Lanterns, the followers of the Lord of Blades, various Talenta tribes or maybe pan-tribal societies, and so on. A few adventures. An in-depth sourcebook on a city other than Sharn or Stormreach – Thronehold has amazing potential for intrigue, what with being shared between the remaining four constituent nations of Galifar.

I love Eberron as a setting, but that sounds like far too much. Breadth of humanoids? The vast majority of humanoids are covered very very well, you could slide the few that aren't into a different book. A psionic specific book? Don't see the appeal. It might work as a generic psionics book, but that will barely sell, and Eberron specific psionics? I don't think there is even a niche for that.

No idea what "Magic of Eberron" is for, but I have a few things from Keith Baker that covers enough for me.

But I think the larger point is, while some of these would be nice... I just don't see a lot of use for them. Not compared to what can be done with PDFs on DMsGuild for a fraction of the cost. And without abandoning other settings.